Who Gets Funded, Who Gets Labelled a Risk? Jane Tanner on Money, Justice and Repair

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Welcome to another edition of the BGM Briefing. And today we have the fantastic, uh, Jane Tanner from Paul Hamlyn Foundation. Jane, welcome to the BGM Briefing podcast. Thank you very much. Great to have you here. Lovely to be here. Thanks, Jake. I'm really excited to get to know you a bit more. I know we've seen each other on and off in and around the funding world. Mm. But we've probably not had that deep and meaningful chat, so maybe we, today might be the day. Start of one. Start of many, hopefully. Yeah. So Jane, you're a, a grants manager at Paul Hamlyn. You've been there since 2018, am I, am I right? That's right. Customary on these podcasts to actually go back- Mm a bit more and really find out a bit more about the, the, the person, Jane. Mm. And who you are. And I dis- I c- I can... There's a northern accent. Absolutely. I mean, I've got a little bit of one. Yeah. But yours is a bit broader. Are you Manchester, Bolton way? Bolton, yeah. Bolton. Bolton, Lancashire, born and bred. Um, which is funny 'cause I've been living in London for probably nearly 30 years. So I put it down to still having family roots still very much there and thriving, that would never allow me to quite lose the accent, so. So what was it like in Bolton? I mean, in the '90s I'm, I'm thinking. Ugh. Oh, bless you. '90s. Let's try the se- eight- '70s, '80s, and '90s. Okay. All right. There you go. Um, so yeah, for my, yeah, for my sort of formative years, '80s, '90s- Mm-hmm um, uh, it was, it was quite interesting. Uh, my family still live in a very small village just on the outskirts, which is often referred to as the Salford overspill. Okay. Um, and as a child grew up, we were the only, literally the only Black family in the village. Uh, when I started school and secondary school, and both times the next Black person was my brother- Wow come to the school. Okay. So we grew up in a really, uh- How did you navigate that? What was that like? Yeah, interesting. Um- Right, so there's two pers- two aspects of it. I mean, one is it's quite challenging. Mm-hmm. Uh, deeply racist in that rather mundane sort of regular way of, "What do you mean?" You know, "We literally don't see color." Yeah. Yeah. Um, except we do. Hmm. Um, and I probably spent the first sort of 11 years of my life fighting and struggling just about, you know, sort of generic sort of abuse. And, and then sort of very quickly realized that if I was gonna survive this, it would be about sort of turning it on its head, and being charming, and being quite strategic- Mm-hmm um, picking off your friends in the sports area. And I used to love writing and poetry. Mm. So to pick off your sort of y- what you, you sort of learned, your smartest sort of kids, and pick off your ones that were just great fun, and relaxing, and okay to be with. Um- So you sounds like you developed some early coping mechanisms. Survival. Absolutely. Or survival, survival techniques. Absolutely. Had to. Um, and, and I say that, I look back and it's with fondly because I ach- you know, managed those strategies. Yeah. I managed to sort of build around me a little group. I always had a c- a clutch of friends that I always had fun with and, um, was outwardly quite confident and quite easy, quite comfortable sort of moving around. A lot of that I'm sure is attributed to the fact that I had quite sort of a, a big sort of extended family- Mm-hmm who lived in different parts of Bolton not too far away. So you always had that sort of comfortable kind of cushion and sort of, uh, uh, sort of space to go back to. But- Um, on reflection, in these later years now, I do realize that, um, the impact of being, of going through that and experiencing that- Yeah was, um, you learn to assimilate a little bit too much. Mm-hmm. You learn to... I say too much. You learn to do what's, what's necessary. Yeah. Um, you learn to code switch. And I think in later life, the impacts of that, you feel very keenly about how much you compromise. How much does you compromise yourself- Mm-hmm. Yeah to be able to do the things that you need to do. Well, look, I think we, it'd be nice to come back to that theme, especially given that you're, you know, you've been in the fund- funding world for- Mm can I say 30 years, approximately like? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um- It's out there so Jane is a bit of a rock star. She might not admit it herself, but she's one of those people in, perhaps working behind the scenes in the funding and phil- philanthropy world who gets stuff done, makes sure money gets to the right places, and so on and so forth. So we- we'll be coming back to Jane about, uh, her experience and, and how she navigates that world. But before we do, I, I believe, Jane, you've got... We're, for those listening, we're actually in, um, Rising Tide, uh, Rising Tide Trust, which is a youth music, um, initiative and project based here in Hackney in the old Ocean building. So for those who perhaps know Hackney back in the '90s, Ocean was a big music venue. And, uh- Mm I believe you had some role in that, Jane? I would say a very minor role. Okay. Um, but in the context of I was working with the then Training and Enterprise Council- Mm-hmm who, um, held a very, uh, sort of an aerial view of how the commercial fit alongside some of the more sort of civic community-driven spaces, which were then... I can't even remember the framing then of the work, but in terms of funding this model, it was, it, it created a lot of excitement at the time. Mm-hmm. That we had this sort of novel approach of bringing community with a, into a commercial context, which I think reflected the politics of the time. Yeah. The f- you know, the, the setting up of the quangos of the Training and Enterprise Councils- Yeah as well. So, um, the area of work that I sort of came through on was around regeneration, and particularly at that time, single regeneration. SRBs. Yeah, so- Yes. SRB Round 4 specifically for me. Okay. Um, and I was part of- Well, I co-wrote and produced and eventually delivered what was then Breaking Barriers- Mm-hmm which was a cross-borough, four boroughs, including Hackney- Mm-hmm um, program which was centered around employment training, education for young people, particularly those who were worryingly framed as, uh, dis- What, what was the, what was the phrase that they used back then? Ah, I, it embarrasses me to say it now, but it was, uh, for those, for disaffected youth. But they meant Black people, right? They meant Black people. Okay. Is... Oh, d- Um, but more widely it was, it was disaffected young people. Yeah. So those who were, yeah, not in education, employment, training. Yeah. Okay. We refer to them as NEET now, don't we? Um- So that must have taught you a lot about how money flows and who has the power, who has the, who makes the decisions, and so on. So interesting. Um, I, I mean, I look back now and sort of marvel. I had, um, access and some limited control of divvying up, quite randomly I would say, um- portions of funding to be allocated in, in a contract basis- Mm-hmm with lots of locally sort of driven organizations and partnerships. Um, but I did that with a, a full team as part of the training enterprise space of, uh, accountants and legal team- Yeah and comms. So it allowed me not to really engage directly- Mm-hmm and this, this I'll talk about risk in, in a, in a second, with the actual sort of realities of an organization to be able to sustain itself. Yeah. Um, but I was in a position, because we were dealing with government money, that I had to be able to say, "You need to be able to sig- tick off all of these things around due diligence- Mm to be able to have those things in place." And I, yeah, I remember thinking at the time the audacity of somebody like myself doing that with not necessarily the experience to sort of- Yeah handle that. Obviously, later on I acquired that in various other places, um, first hand. But I remember at the time being very aware, oh, there's a whole lot of stuff here that we're not paying attention to that is very much part of the work that these organizations have gotta do- Mm-hmm as well as then deliver what they're doing as well. Yeah. Um, and that that wasn't recognized. And also really early on, being very aware of... And the, the question is still is, and a perennial question, why do some cr- organizations seem sort of really slick, well prepared, have, you know- Mm their theory of change in place, their impact and valuation manager in place, their sort of comm strategy, and, you know, beautiful elaborate business strategy, where there are other organizations that were clearly, you know, pulling along from if not month to month, from sort of project- Yeah to project n- not equipped with those things. Mm-hmm. There's clearly a different sort of dialogue going on for some organizations- Mm-hmm who were on the inside and had access to that power and information about how they present and structure themselves. And others who were outside of that- Yeah but caught our at- well, caught my attention 'cause they were doing the work really well. Yeah. So there was always that kind of question, those seeds- And do you think that- were really there early on do you think that power dy- that ecosystem- Mm that ecology, if you like, still exists now? I mean, you know, that was what? 20-odd years ago. Yeah, yeah. Is it still prevalent now? Um, if not prevalent, it's still there. Yeah. It's still constant. And yeah, there's, there, there are things, there's work to be done- Mm around, uh, if not exposing that, at least equipping other organizations with either my- myth busting- Yeah about some of it. But also, um- For s- I think from a funder perspective, being really honest- Yeah about that and open. And, you know, every funder has their grants plus offer- Mm-hmm which is the resources and additional support that should wrap around a grant to make, to help organizations make the most of that grant period that they have. Mm-hmm. And for me, there's room in there to really examine and unpick why some organizations come along seemingly... And, and it's terrible how it's framed. Mm-hmm. Um, so for example, part of your due diligence as a funder will be like, and, you know, what is your reserves policy? Yeah, yeah. And everybody, you know, is looking for the sweet spot of three to six months in your space when you know very well that you'll be sat across an organization, they're thinking, "Can I pay my staff next month?" Yeah, yeah, yeah. While I'm doing this really essential work from project to project." Yeah. So I think understanding the context by which some organizations- Mm-hmm come into sort of some funding spaces, um, and what they have and what they're equipped with, being able to genuinely support an organization without them feeling like- Yeah "Oh, dear, yeah, I'm, I'm exposing myself horribly." I think it's about honesty. Yeah. No matter what happens. Well, look, I mean, um, one of the reasons we, we were so delighted that you'd agreed to come on, uh, this show was that you're one of those honest, approachable funders. And I think, um, we found a lot from some of our work supporting particularly Black-led frontline organizations- Mm is they don't think they can just pick up the phone- Mm or create a relationship with a fund manager or a grants manager- Mm or grants officer. Does that help you f- on the grant-making side if you get to know organizations better? Absolutely. Um- So, I, I remember when I came into this space, sub 2018- Mm I felt very much like a bit of a unicorn. They weren't, there weren't many sort of working class- Mm-hmm sort of Black people coming from the other side of the fence. So by the time- Yeah I arrived at, uh, Paul Hamlyn Foundation, wanna say, um, I, uh, had spent a lot of time doing either fundraising or working with organizations to build that sort of structure around- Mm-hmm what they were doing. Um, it was, I was sort of working on programs and building sort of youth offers across huge swathes of London estates as well. So I'd, I'd had lots of work on the other side of the fence. Yeah. And I hate saying that because, you know, by even saying it, you're, you're putting a fence up. But I'd done that other side of the work. As well as coming away going, oh, uh, I really wanna be the one giving out the money- Mm-hmm not trying to find the money. Um, uh, I, when I went into phil- philanthropy, I realized, um, that there weren't that many of me there. And my goodness, did it make a difference when organizations were approaching, when they saw a face that they were like, "Oh, I... One, I recognize that." But I think probably more, it's not just the face, I think it's an empathy and- Mm-hmm understanding and an appreciation that when you come into those spaces, you can feel like other. Yeah. The, the real facts behind that is sort of probably not, it's not that, in that way inclined. Back in 2020 when we all had the Great Awakening, um, I s- joined something called Future Foundations- Right. Okay which is a space that's been curated. Many, uh, several funders got behind that and funded that. Mm-hmm. Apologies to those who were part of the origins of it. Can't remember all the names now. Um, but I was confronted rather beautifully w- I think with about 50 Faces from global majority Mm-hmm All the people working in philanthropy, all with the same shell-shocked look on their face, quite interestingly- Mm-hmm. Okay um, for what that period sort of uncovered. So how, uh, w- I mean, in creating Future Foundations- Mm what was the plan? W- was there, was it a secret club that- It's not a secret club could move and shake in- in wonderful ways? It- Some might think it's a secret club. All right But no, it- How did it work? Yeah What, what, what were you trying to achieve? And it still continues to work- Yeah as a space for people from the global majority who are committed- Mm-hmm to phil- philanthropic spaces, to be able to come together- Mm-hmm to convene, to strategize. But equally, to, uh, support and maintain each other's wellbeing. Yeah. Okay. So, and people just wanted to be- I mean, it's difficult work, right? Money, you know, is always the... Wherever there's money, there's gonna be complex relationships. So yeah. So there's some things that I'd sort of learnt about philanthropy- Mm both from when I first went in and to what I understand now. Mm-hmm. Um, and very early on, there was an appreciation that there's a real privilege to be in that space. Mm-hmm. But with it comes a responsibility. Yeah. A huge one, and one of absolutely constantly demonstrating respect for those who are engaged on the other side of that exchange. Yeah. Um, organizations where, yeah, y- you, you... Th- there's, uh, no doubt about that power dynamic that operates between- Mm-hmm the funder and the prospective grant holder. Um, and entering into that conversation pretending it's not is disingenuous. Yeah. So then there's a responsibility to hold seriously and intentionally the responsibility that you have, and th- that responsibility is that of not so much a... I feel like there's an old-school sort of thought about, oh, you're, it's charity. You're doing charitable work- Mm and good works. No, no. I feel like in the, this space, you are the temporary steward- Yeah of resources that need to contribute to greater equity. Mm-hmm. That's the context in which I work. Okay. And I think a lot of foundations would purport to work, but don't perhaps- The power dynamics might sometimes make that sort of not such a clear sort of dynamic. So for me, it's about steward, temporary steward- Yeah moving that money to where it does the greater good. And, you know, 'cause obviously, uh, many of our listeners will be working in the criminal justice sector- Yeah and maybe, you know, on that treadmill of constantly trying to bring in funds to do the great work that they do on the ground. Mm. I mean, have you got any tips for organizations about how to engage best with funders? Uh, are there a- any common themes that you'd wanna- Mm uh, let people know about? I mean, it's interesting. You, yeah, you d- you We describe it as criminal justice system. Mm. Um, just learning from the organizations that we've worked with, um- Yeah or that I've worked with in, both in the foundation space and before that. I tend to now see it as a criminal legal system. Yeah. So, you know, the idea that justice, the way that it's, the systems are set up- Indeed do not necessarily contribute to, uh, equitable- Mm justice-led or seated ends. Um, and given that it is about sort of the systems around that, around policing, around the secure state, the- Mm-hmm probation spaces, and what they're missing in terms of systemic change, um, I think there's huge gaps in sort of how, you know, sort of contextual safeguarding even shows up. You know, it's like it's When you look at, particularly we're talking about it from a global majority- Yeah sort of perspective, it's that understanding that there is so much more about, you know, childhood traumas, about- Mm sort of community. It's about all the systems of inequity that sort of feed into and contribute to somebody being in front of the, the systems that all c- all contribute to our legal system, um, have so much more impact. And I think for, there's a lot for Uh, global majority organizations that work in the criminal justice legal system can do to really drive home that sort of understanding- Mm for funders to be able to, uh, more effectively meet- And do you think funders need to, to go on more of a journey than they have done so far? Yeah. Um, I think there's a degree of understanding there about that. I know certainly in our sort of spaces that we work with, and increasingly you're seeing lots of foundations saying- Mm-hmm uh, you know, systems change is where they're at. So what does that mean? Mm. Um, and in the context of criminal justice and cr- legal systems, like bouncing between the two, uh, I, I think about where does reparational justice and restorative justice- Mm show up in some of the approaches that we talk about now. Where does, as I said, contextual safeguarding show up? Where does the, the fact that if we think about the staff around this, w- you know, if you've got police who are trained and conditioned to see a Black person in the street and consider that they then are a source of harm- Mm rather than somebody actually who deserves the same safeguarding and care and- Mm regard as anybody else. Mm. Um, how do we change and convert that? How do we draw out and build and strengthen investment in those, uh, people who go into, say, policing with the thing that they want to protect and serve? Mm. And how is that held up? A wonderful analogy that was provide- that somebody else gave to me, uh, Ruth, thank you, um, was you look at teachers, those most vocationally driven are completely sidelined from that because they're just managing behavior because- Yeah the systems and resources around them are not enabling them to do the thing that they came in- Mm and they hoped and dreamed of doing. The same could be applied to police. The same could be applied perhaps to some- Indeed, yeah of the secured estates. The same could be said about sort of the education- Mm-hmm and the funding spaces around it. So when you say about funders having more sort of, uh, knowledge and, uh, potential to get on board and, and, and embrace that, and let that govern how they fund, there's absolutely room to do that. It's there already. Um, I think though that funders, there's an opportunity for funders to really examine and deploy- Mm their convening power. Obviously, the money. Everybody wants the money in this. Of course. And the- Mm constant, uh, response in there, or the consideration is there's never gonna be enough money to sort of- Mm-hmm really, truly halt, disrupt, and rebuild those systems. Whilst it's obviously the foundation part of this, but there's, I think there's a part of it that's equally as important, or it's important, is the convening power- Mm-hmm to support Those experts, those Global Majority organizations who know, who understand- Mm-hmm forensically what those sort of changes and systems can be. So how, how does that convening manifest then? Will you bring together those that you're resourcing and then, you know, talk with government or talk with parts of the system? How, how does it work from a funder perspective? I think there's, there's a, a whole suite of things. Mm. There's something about, um, for those who do have, if not influence, then connections to government- Mm to central, to regional, um, governments, um, really coordinating collectively- Mm on some core messaging about how that should be. And it's done with organizations, not just sort of- Mm funders sort of driving that. I think there's something about the importance of it being really owned and understood- Mm and shared and trusted in by Global Majority. Yeah. I think, uh, Global Majority organizations, I think, um, all too often we get sort of navel-gazey about- Yeah how we're doing what we're gonna do, and get lost in our own source and, and go ahead. And that sort of check and balance thing that's done with the community isn't always done. Mm. Or maybe it's not, um, checked to be if it's, see if it's fully accountable. Mm. So look, you've had a, a long career. It sounds like you've learnt a lot. You've had to navigate some choppy waters occasionally. Mm. Um, what do you think have been some of your biggest challenges as a, a grants manager particularly, do you think? How much time have we got? Oh, we've got all day, Jane. That's a really good question, actually Or anything that you may be looking back, you think, "Oh, I wish I'd done it differently." But, you know, we, we, we all face challenges every day. Yeah. Uh, and I think the funder world is, is a very complex beast. Mm. Um, so, excuse me. Tell me a bit more about- Some of the challenges some of the big, big hurdles you've had to overcome. Um, I th- I think for the context here, we're talking about sort of- Couple of things. So around the criminal justice space and those collectives, organizations, um, and individuals even- Mm-hmm who are sort of, I, I consider to be sort of leaders in this space. Yeah. Um, I think what jumps out, there'll be those that aren't perceived to be grant-ready. Yeah. I, you know, in line with sort of foundations. But, and this is changing- Mm-hmm but, um, you know, aren't considered to be a robust, a robustly set-up organization as such. Mm-hmm. And I, I'd, you know, I've had to work quite hard to either do a combination of working with organizations to advise them of the things that they will need to be having in place- Mm-hmm if they wanna be, you know, recognized as a CIC or having charitable stasis, uh, status, and all the things that relate to that. So there'll, there's partly about, the challenges are how much do you try and shape and define and support- Mm an organization to go down a ro- road that might not necessarily be what they want to be- Yeah and to be able to do what they're doing efficiently. Yeah. Versus, uh, uh, how do I say this? Is sort of, uh, framing and presenting organizations to a foundation panel for f- Mm-hmm funding, and, um, having to really sort of do a, not a convincing job, but really have to sort of stand firm and- Mm-hmm supportive, and sometimes courageous in presenting what... And again, this is a challenge for funders. W- something that's all too often considered as a risk. Yeah. And that word risk is kind of nuanced and, um, uh, sometimes it's racist. Uh, sometimes it's, quite often it'll be we don't know enough about them, or we don't recognize- Mm just the extent to which this particular collective or organization is the expert in this particular space. Mm-hmm. Um, that their knowledge, their cultural competency trounces, trounces a lot of what else is being offered in the same space. Um, I, it's funny, even, uh, even now I continue to be surprised and impressed and humbled when I see- Mm sort of approaches and work done by organizations that would be considered really small- Mm-hmm and sort of not quite fitting the role, you know, the, um, you know, the, the sort of idea of a leading organization in a space- Mm in terms of systems change. Um, I'm gonna say it, Kids of, Kids of Color up in Manchester. Yeah. Yeah. Um, their, their whole campaign work around sort of working with Manchester. So they were, they came up w- in- Partnership with community with a whole raft of alternatives to- Mm uh, to prison for- Yeah a group of young men. Um, that brought in so many varied offers from businesses, educators, mentors, people who were offering internships. So many alternatives that were about restorative work and work that was seated in. Mm-hmm. As a funder, we would call it strengths-based approach and fo- and forward. So you, you were able to resource them, you, you trusted them, you overcome, overcame some risk challenges that perhaps- So- potentially posed by those making decisions. Yeah. So for a long time they would not be considered an organization that was- in a suitable place to be able to hold- Right, okay their ground. Not, not because of the quality of the work. Mm. I think that was n- that's never questioned. Mm. Um, it was, I think it was more about the shape and the, you know, how the organization was run- Yeah and delivered, what they did, and who they were accountable to. Yeah. So there is some very real, sort of tangible things around, you know, our obligations as a foundation, um, how we comply with our- Mm-hmm kind of regulations as, with the Charity Commission. But I, I'm seeing now there's more preparedness. And so you are, your ori- original question is what have been the big challenges? Yeah. It's when you see really quality, you know, sort of good quality work, and it doesn't quite fit the format. Mm. That's kind of, um, that's frustrating. So should funders be more flexible do you think? Is that a- I think that's where we're moving to fair thing to say? Yeah. And I think there's something about how we get there as well- Mm and in, and what's the case for that. Mm-hmm. And I think it's definitely in encouraging funders to build their accountability as to who they have in their portfolios, who's doing the work, what is it we see and recognized as impact and difference made. Mm. It's more attention perhaps to the so what, and how that informs what we do next. Yeah. So look, I mean, there are lots of- Funders like yours that are prepared to do things differently, right? I often find with a lot of the government- Mm schemes, that flexibility is not built in. Mm. I mean, do you ever have the opportunity to potentially influence, you know, government commissioners, procurement teams about how they could better buy- Mm the expertise of Black and global majority organizations? I mean, me personally, limited. Mm. Because, yeah, the, the time and resource I have around that space. The foundation, they'll just have sort of policy- Yeah and learning spaces. And I was saying it's that overall convening power, which I think- Yeah can be deployed. Um, but again, I think there's an importance of us doing it collaboratively. Mm. Both other foundations who have aligned values. Mm-hmm. Other leaders in the sector, stakeholders, you know, those who are actually delivering the work. I think there's something about working collectively to decide on the key couple of, uh, you know, the, the, the few systemic pieces that we want to sort of have make change. Um, and I, and that is about, not as much about the money- Mm but it's about lending your weight and influence to those things. Interesting. Okay. So look, um, we touched on earlier, uh, so we, we've talked about risk, we've talked about perhaps how Black and Global Majority organizations can sort of engage better with funders and not hold back. Mm. Um, you know, your, your area of work is the racial justice strand, right? No, I'm... So mine's investing in young people. Investing in young people. Yeah. Okay So I'm- mine's about supporting organizations, specifically working towards or with young people- Mm-hmm who are facing the most challenging transitions to adulthood. Okay. So you're thinking about young people who are care experience, in criminal sort of, at risk of falling in and out of the criminal justice system- Mm-hmm exclusion of school, from school- Mm-hmm homelessness or risk of homelessness, being- And are you able to invest in that whole life experience that young people who are in those situations, you know, they, they need support on so many different fronts often- Yeah whether that's housing, pastoral support, and so on. Mm. Mm. So as a funder, are you able to sort of offer a, the sort of funds that c- allows the organization to provide f- you know, fully wr- full wraparound support? I mean, because you, you're not just funding one aspect- No surely of the- So, yeah, the way we, we position the funding in that particular area- Mm and as an, as an organization is with a focus on systemic change. Mm-hmm. So th- there's an acknowledgement that there are many, many brilliant service deliverers out there, people who are doing- Mm really great projects, but we have limited resource. Mm. The way we target that is with those who are aiming to or are already disrupting those systems- Okay that are promoting and building i- inequity. So there's a very sort of challenged way we do that. Yeah. Uh, beyond that, though, we, we'd, we're not in the position of saying as an org, you must do it this way, or you must- Mm cover this element. So where organizations are offering that sort of wider support, or they're doing it in collaboration with others, we're open to listen to how that's being done. What we're interested in is the results. Mm-hmm. What's in there in terms of- The impact you purport to have, um, and how does that show up? What's your evidence base for that? You, you've talked about Kids of Color as a good example- Mm of an organization that's doing really good work. Mm. Um, doesn't necessarily fit the usual mold. Mm. Has, has... You've had to be more flexible with them in order to ensure they get the resources. Crystal sounds like a pretzel, yes. Um, are there other organizations that are particularly working on that, in that, you know- Mm criminal legal system- Mm who are now able to demonstrate they're having an impact on a systemic level? I mean- Gosh, there are, there are, there are many. I mean- I'm sure there's loads, but- Yeah are, are there any that really stick out for you? That stand out? Yeah, I mean, there is... I'm just trying to... There are some that, uh... So I think about, is it Class 13? They were doing work we sort of support through, um, not through Investing in Young People in other areas, um, as key infrastructural or background- Mm organizations. StopWatch UK. Mm-hmm. Um, rest in peace 4Front for me were always an amazing- Mm-hmm organization just from, um, that sort of community up. It was sort of- properly roots based- Mm working with young people in a really sort of granular way. Um, Belonging, uh, Make Justice Happen are in the space now. Sorry, I d- I- I'm trying to think. No, no, I'm- Yeah putting you on the spot. I'm just, yeah. Is there anything that, that's unique about these types of organizations do you think? Um- Cause there may well be quite a lot of, um, people listening to this who think, "Well, yeah, we're able to-" Yeah influence. Could they approach it? I mean, if they're doing that work, how would they come and speak to you or to Paul Hamlin about- Yeah investment? So yeah, the top- I think So the top line sort of thing that we're look, we, we require- Mm um, is that you're working in the, in a level of systemic change. Mm-hmm. And that you can evidence that strongly, that you have real clarity about how you're doing that going forward. Mm-hmm. Um, I will, I say this with chest, yeah, we're only interested in organizations that are working with- Yeah and not doing to young people. Mm-hmm. We are, we are always looking for strengths base- strength-based approaches. Mm-hmm. So that's organizations where we see an element of that work is clearly, not an element, that the work is clearly driven and centered by young people's direction- Mm-hmm of the, of, of the work. Whether that's they show up as, you know, campaigners or they get involved in the operational side of things- Mm or they're involved in influencing in policy. You know, it's, it's, uh, again, we don't dictate where that, where that happens. Mm-hmm. Um, but it is a core element of what they're doing. Um, uh, we try to respond to, I think, what the sector needs- Yeah which is more flexible core investment- Mm multi-year funding. So how, how many years do you generally or can you fund over? We, we, yeah. Is it up to five years or longer? So we, we do acro- uh, we've got across the, uh, piece, so we do sort of three years funding. Mm-hmm. There's an initial sort of investing young people fund. Mm-hmm. Uh, for those organizations that are showing real strengths in, um, uh, wider impact in what they're doing. Um, and again, we talk about that sort of, you're interrupting- Mm-hmm those systems that are causing the problems, that are putting up the barriers for young people. There's a further two years. Okay. For a small, small group, and it's an invi- invitation only space, there's a further five years of funding. So we have a quite a unique, I think- Mm-hmm I'm could be drawing myself out saying that. That's a potential 10 years for a handful of organizations. Mm-hmm. But underneath it is a base for about 20 organizations a year. So it's not a massive sort of fund. It's not a huge portfolio, but- No as you say, it's, it's targeted at, at probably an under-resourced area. Yeah. So, um, tell me a little bit more about the sorts of evidence or, um, uh- information you need to see from organizations that demonstrates they're having an impact? 'Cause you can demonstrate impact in many different ways. Yeah. It doesn't have to be a long, 80-page academic report. Yeah, yeah. So what are the sort of things that you look, look out for when you're trying to, um- Be- articulate to perhaps others in your team or your board- To myself, yeah or even to yourself- Yeah that, yeah, I've made a good investment here. What are the sort of things that, you know, really stick out for you as- Um- good measurement tools? I mean, it, it's, uh, I mean, always the questions about that are seated in where the organization's at. Right. So it's how do you tell the story, A, of the need of what you're doing? Mm-hmm. How it fits in, who's it supporting, and how? Mm-hmm. But what's your evidence base for that? What's your sort of starting point, your sort of journey? How are you doing that? Is it, do you articulate it through theory of change, or do you do it through some kind of log process? But then, what is the form of evaluation and learning you take? Um, we're open to how that looks, as long as it's quantifiable. Yeah. As long as you can codify what it is you're doing. Mm-hmm. Um, so we'll have all kinds of things. You know, there'll be organizations who their investment is hugely in young people narrating and telling their own story. So their strategic plans and launching of that, and people's journeys is through that, that reporting and evaluation done by young people. There'll be others that are doing a sort of far more sort of, um, kind of academic and fore- Mm forensically driven pieces, where, uh, uh, they're working in partnership with, you know, academia to be able to produce sort of- Mm-hmm you know, in-depth evaluation of what they're doing. Um, what- whatever way it shows up. I, there's no one particular way. Right. Okay. Um, and the way that we sort of do reporting as well, it's like you tell us- Yeah how you're doing what you're doing, because it is gonna be different for every organization. Yeah. Okay. You know, one sort of little small sort of collective here that's maybe got sort of one or two staff over here is not gonna be the same as something that's working at national scale in multiple countries- Mm-hmm multiple regions, and informing policy over here. Another one that might be originally service delivery- Mm-hmm level, but its work is working beyond its own young people that it's supporting They have, they have very different ways- Yeah of doing their sort of evaluation. So, um, yeah, the questions are very much led by how the organization does what they do. Helpful. Um, so Jane, we're coming to sort of the end of the, the hour. It's been a brilliant conversation. I suppose I want to end by really asking you about the future. Mm. Uh, not just for you, Jane, although- Mm please share if you have any thoughts about what's next for you- Mm and your, um, constant evolution. Mm. But what do you think, um, the sector needs to think about going forward, and what, what do you see as the sort of challenges a bit further down the line? We obviously, you know, we're living in a world that's far more technologically based- Mm AI, and- Mm you know, I'm sure every application you, you receive these days- Mm has got an AI element- For good for good or for worse. Mm. Um, so just thinking at, you know, let's project five years ahead, what does that look like for you? Yeah I mean, on the, uh, I mean, I purport... I know nothing around, uh, not, that's not true. But on front, on the AI front and receiving applications- Mm in that way, we make a particular sort of thing about we want to dig underneath that. Mm. So the conversations that we have are outside of an application. Um, and it's the deeper questions about- Mm sort of around what's, what's sort of delivered and how. And I think we have a good body of under- body, a team of understanding that. The bigger thing I think is the context that we're working in right now, um, and it's quite important. There's a level of authoritarianism now- Mm that we are all dealing with. Yeah. There are some organizations now that are facing sort of direct- Yeah sort of, uh, quite hostile- Global, yeah um, sort of, uh, uh, treatment. And what can you do as funders to support people in that position? So my take is I think there's something here. We, and I think the funders, there are some funders who are talking about this already, is about how do we ready release resources to be able to support people to mitigate the legal, the communications, and the wellbeing- Mm sort of resource and support for organizations to be able to weather what are now really challenging times. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I can see for our global majority organizations, for the staff of those organizations, for the young people being supported, uh, these are unprecedented times in some ways. So paying attention to that as- Mm as funders I think is important. I think to not sort of look away, not to shy away. Mm. To clarify our messaging about what's important and what the priorities are within those spaces is key. And I think that going back to that, how do we use our convening power to, I don't wanna say validate, but to make sure that people recognize we see what's important, we see- Mm what's happening to them, we care about it. Yeah. Um, and more than that, we'll do what we need to do to deploy resources to be able to mitigate some of the, some of what's happening now. I think that's important. I, I really like that, Jane. It's almost like, you know, you're that friend in need when certain things hit the fan. Mm. You know, as a friend, I, I really get, I feel, I feel that from you. You've got a genuine empathy towards- Mm the challenges that you know these organizations are facing- Mm and are gonna face. Mm. You know, because if you've got a local council who is diametrically opposed to- Yeah your pure existence- Yeah you need every help you're gonna get. Yeah To navigate that storm and- Mm let's hope it's a temporary one and not a permanent- Yeah thing. But we've alr- already seen that the Charity Commission can be influenced by government to investigate certain charities, perhaps unnecessarily, and so on. Yeah. So, um- And that's happening. Yeah. Yeah. So, I, I'm glad there are people in this world like yourself, Jane, who are prepared to stand up and be counted, and more importantly, stand with those organizations- Mm and get that, that joint messaging right- Mm so that the narrative is, uh, the correct one- Yeah not some crazy fantasy. There's, yeah, there's, there's multiple levels I think to it. Mm. There's one about that kind of immediate sort of responsiveness to- Yeah organizations. If it's about unlocking some funds so that an organization can beef up their security or get contacts, you know, get the right legal support or- Mm-hmm uh, you know, the sort of the comms advice that they need to, around navigating how to deal with quite horribly damaging press, um, or social media- Mm um, assaults. Um, there's that side, but I think there's a longer, more steadied, I think, systemic thing, which is- Mm how do you get connected to and accountable to Not only those who are holding grants, but the wider sector because it's all connected. It's all intersectional. So how do we make sure that across this piece everybody gets some real sort of clear message about the support that's there- Mm-hmm the support that can be created. We don't know yet what it is. Okay. Um, but how do we work? So are, are you, uh, working alongside other funders to sort of- Yeah, so coordinate those efforts? Um, I, yeah, there are some sort of joint sort of- Mm-hmm things where there's collective funding into, into some work that's about specifically doing the emergency responses to- Mm-hmm those organizations in need. So when we're talking to grant holders who are saying they've had to put extra security on, or they've had to put on extra transports bill to make sure their staff can get to and from places safely. Yeah. Um, to get young people to and so- to- Mm and from places or to s- to reboot the online support because they haven't been able to open their center- Mm because their city center's on fire. It's, uh- Yeah uh, yeah. There, there to me are the things that immediately come to mind about how we do those things. And I think there's more of a, a... Keep banging on systemic, but I think there's something about the opportunity for funders to make sure they stay accountable in this space- Yeah because it's very easy to fade into the background. It's not easy, but it can... There's always a risk that you can end up sort of speaking internally about what the problem is and how you can do things. Yeah. It's, I think it's a, a, a reasonable accusation of foundations that you can spend a lot of time talking internally- Yeah and not perhaps have the action follow. And I think there's an opportunity for funders to remain accountable, including on the impacts for global majority organizations who are at the front line of doing so much of this work, whether it's in criminal justice or the spaces that connect to it. Um, and for me, there's a real importance of- Things like the now defunct Funders for Race Equality Alliance- Mm-hmm which was the one space where funders were invited- Mm-hmm and responded to. Yeah. Um, be able to not only collect data on how their funding showed up for those- Mm communities, um, but the action on the back of it. Yeah. And I think there's something, there's an invitation I think there to- Or maybe you might take it upon yourself to create something new, Jane. Um, it sounds to me like you've, over the last hour, really talked about a manifesto for progressive funding- and, you know, all, you know, great, it's great to hear. And, you know, big respect to you, Jane, for continuing to just be unwavering in that level- Mm of support that you give people. It, it, you know, I, I feel it. Mm. And I'm sure the organizations you've resourced, you know, respect you for it, so. We try. Big thank you, and thanks for being so honest with us today. I know it's a tricky world navigating philanthropy and- Mm funding and all the rules and regulations. And, you know, it's about giving organizations what they need, really- Yeah the, the tools to really succeed. So, thank you. And maybe we'll get you back at a, a later juncture, maybe with a few funders and talking about collective work- Mm because I think that, for me, is really exciting, is when we can- Yeah work outside our comfort zones- Mm and do things together. Uh- I think it's the way forward and I definitely think there probably are a few government procurement experts that could do with a Jane Tanner plugin. Thank you, Jane. You've been a, a, a great interviewee. Thanks so much for- Thank you for joining. It's a pleasure. Thank you.