What Makes Government Listen? Dr Summer Alston-Smith on Money, Influence and Funding

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It's great to see you all for issue two of the BJM Briefing. This is the second in our series of podcasts, and we've got a great guest on today's podcast. Her name is Summer Alston-Smith, and she is the CEO of Clinks. So welcome, Summer. And I believe this is your first ever podcast. Absolutely. Wow. Thank you so much for having me, Jake. And thanks for, um, putting me right out of my comfort zone, um, in all things podcasting, but thank you to you and the team for guiding me through. Well, look, if this is the first and this goes well, it can only get better, right? So we- we'll make some mistakes. I'm not a seasoned, uh, presenter, by the way, everyone. Um, but yeah, it's great to have you. Thanks for your time. I know you're a busy woman. Uh, you've been in the Clinks role for nearly a year now, is that right? No, no, six months. Six months. Feels like longer. That's why you're thinking- Okay it's 12. Um, no, it's six mon- it was six months last week I've been in the position, but I've been long acquainted with Cl- with Clinks. Um, I, you know, from the very beginning of my time in criminal justice, I was very familiar with all things Clinks' world. I was a subsc- you know, a subscriber to Light Lunch, using it to sort of catch up on all the things that were happening across criminal justice, as well as working with, uh, more closely with the Clinks team in the years that followed in the women's network. So I'm re- relatively familiar with the Clinks world, but nonetheless, it has been a bit of a ride and a journey really getting behind the scenes and understanding how things work from the inside. So it's been a real privilege- S- and a joy. So you were a member, and now you're on the other side of the fence- That's right serving the members. Yeah. That must feel a bit strange. It is a bit strange in ways, and it's, um... but it's also really illuminating, um, peering behind the curtain, and it gives me a different perspective 'cause I can see how the external perception can look and then what the internal reality- Yeah feels like. Um, and so that's one of the things that I think has been really helpful in my getting my head around the organization and where we are, as well as where we, where we need to go and where we want to go. Um, so that makes it really exciting. Well, like any good podcast host, I've done a little bit of research about Summer. Nothing too, um, salacious. But, uh, in terms of your- Who, me? There's nothing salacious to find. No, of course there are. Well, you never know. I believe, you know, this is your first C- CEO- Yes role. Yeah? Yeah. And before you were, um, head of insight at Advance. So I was director of, um, all things funding- Mm-hmm fundraising and research at Advance before, and I was there for a very long time, um, so very much grew up with the organization. Um, it evolved a lot in the time that I was there and, um, I was, I brought on as the director of criminal justice operations- Okay so sort of spearheading when that, um, piece of work really was gathering momentum, um, and working really closely with the chief exec and the board, and really lucky to have that experience to work with an organization, seeing it grow and essentially expand its services- Mm-hmm triple fold. Um, and working with a really dedicated, committing, committed team to, um, making the organization a success. So that was a wonderful, um, learning experience for me, so one I'll be really grateful for. And I, I had a quick look at your bio on, uh, the Clink's website. Yeah. Uh, what, what a career. You've, it talks about supporting over 5,000 women, especially, you know, when you've, you know, looked at those domestic abuse journeys- Yep and, you know, you've been a real mover and shaker in the women's movement. Um, be, be interested to know a bit more about your experience, uh, in that and, and what you think you then bring to the Clink's role. Sure thing. And, uh, oh, you know, again, I've been really lucky to have a very eclectic, um, experience throughout all things criminal justice. So whether it is the research that I did, uh, back in the day, which was with, um, on all things kidnap and doing interviews with convicted kidnappers in prison, the work that I did across the male, female, and young adult estates in the time that I, um, had a lot of focus on family support work- Mm-hmm whether it's doing community-based projects, helplines, uh, courts projects, um, sort of probation-focused work. A- and so again, that sort of really deep dive into all things women's, um, women's work, not only in terms of the- Breadth of it across criminal justice, domestic abuse, and young women and girls, but also in the way in which the structures around women's work can be very different. Mm-hmm. So that extends, um, for example, women's services can be tailored around their volumes. Mm-hmm. So women's work is, um, in terms of scale, the prison female population, for example, is a drop in the bucket compared to the men. Mm-hmm. Sort of around 3,000. Um, likewise, you have the female prison estate that is vastly scattered up and down England only, 'cause there are no female prisons in Wales. And so again, what that means operationally is very different- Mm to when you're looking at operations in the male estate. Um, and of course then the funding, so only 1.8% of the national grant funding gets funneled to women specialist organizations. Really? Goodness. Mm. And yeah, it's, uh, um, not something that most people realize, and I think it's, but I do think it's pretty well known, um, that most of the funding goes to animals, donkey sanctuaries feature- Mm largely. Um, but women of, you know, the women's sector is severely underfunded in that sense. So it just creates different barriers, different paths to navigate and work through. Um, and that has been really interesting to understand. Okay. But it, of course, then's created a lot of interesting opportunities. So because the, the women's sector is smaller, and again a lot of it hinges very fundamentally around the Corston report, which will be 20 years old next year. Mm-hmm. So that was a seminal piece of work, um, done by Baroness Corston in 2007, looking at what the needs of the female prison estate were and what good services for women affected by the pri- pris- criminal justice system would look like. Um, you know, that has been a really fundamental strand that we can all come together around. Mm-hmm. And it makes it very, um, helpful to have that one cornerstone to pivot around. Likewise, the sort of model of women's centers in the community gives it a sort of singularity of focus, and of course, because it's a smaller sector, there's that opportunity for more collaboration, more connectivity- Yeah which again brings its own opportunities. So again, it's be- it was a real privilege to move across all those different walks of the criminal justice system in my career, and then being able to bring that understanding to Clinks. So for our members, when I'm out and about and meeting and talking to people- Mm when they say, "These are the challenges we're having, um, applying for research and getting access to data," I understand that. Yeah. When they're talking about the difficulties of moving, you know, delivering services from one prison to the next, I understand that. I get the har- the difficulty- Mm-hmm doing things in communities. I get the difficulties doing things across the system and connecting up police and courts and probation. And so I really do appreciate the sort of richness of challenges all around. Um, but also what a really vibrant and diverse sector we operate within as Clinks- Mm and the huge range of work happening across our membership. Um, so I'm really privileged to have even an iota of an understanding of what that feels like on the ground, and a lot of sympathy for every chief exec who's up at 2:00 AM writing reports- Indeed applying for funding- Yeah dealing with HR issues. We've all been there. Exactly. But look, I might, um, you know, I do wanna come back to the, the successes of the women's movement a bit, bit later on. I think just, you know, uh, when I think about, um, when we had the opportunity to sort of interview you, uh, especially given it's your first podcast- and you're only six months into the job, I was thinking, well, you know, what would our listeners wanna know, you know? They're- Mm-hmm w- and as humans, we're just nosy. We're nosy people. We can't help ourselves, right? And I think the first time I met you was at the, um- Clinks Conference Clinks Conference, and I instantly recognized your Trini accent, right? Yep. Trinidadian. Which most people don't. Th- they don't? No. Well. Most people think it's Welsh. I need to do my research. So I don't know if you know, but I, my dad's Belizean, so- Yes, I remember Belize is a, uh A tiny country the size of Wales on the mainland of Central America, but we consider ourselves Caribbean. So, um, I was lucky in that I had two years of my young life between four and six actually in Belize. Mm-hmm. So I got to see what a sort of non-Eurocentric existence- Yeah was like. I don't know if... Have you ever lived in Trinidad? Have you, you know, what- Yeah. Of course. Um, you're gonna get in trouble, Jake. You don't ask a Trini if they've lived in Trinidad. Oh, God. No. Um, I, so I left, um, I left when I was 18- Okay to come to the UK to study, uh, with very much the intention of heading back. Um, but I met my husband, who was from here, and the rest is sort of history. Um, but all of my family and friends are back there, so, um, I'm going in a few weeks to go and visit my parents and my cousins, et cetera. So that's sort of, um... It's interesting trying to have a life on both sides of the Atlantic, let's put it that way. No, it's great that you still keep that connection- Yeah, yeah alive and well. And- Of course. But that's, that, that is my home. Mm. Um, and, and obviously I have a, um, real fondness for, for all things British, and that there's that sort of link, you know- Mm-hmm the best way I can describe it is growing up, it tended to be if there was a football match playing, you back Trinidad. If Trinidad's not playing, you back Jamaica. Mm. If Jamaica isn't playing, you back England. Yeah. And that real link with, um, you know, at, at the time, that sort of Man U popularity because obviously Dwight Yorke was from Trinidad, and obviously that kind of link with Dwight Yorke- Yeah and David Beckham and the whole thing. So, um, that sort of, that link was always there. Um, but of course it's really nice to be able to enjoy all things, um, all things in Britain because it is a beautiful place to live- Mm particularly when the sun is shining. And it is today as well. A little bit less so when the winter kicks in. It is today. Yes. Well, let's hope... I mean, the, the, the issue of global warming is terrible, but it does mean it feels like we're in Costa del Hackney sometimes, right? There you go. Tropical plants in Hackney. Who knew? Mm, indeed. Um, so you're six months in. Um, hopefully you're gonna be in the role for a long time, not do what often police chiefs do. They stay in an area for two years and then they move on. Uh, I'm assuming you wanna be in the role for a long time. Do you see yourself in the role for, for quite some time? Well, my predecessor, Anne Fox- Mm-hmm was there for 10 years, so I think she set the bar pretty high. Um, but I will be in the role as long as I am a, a value to the role. Yeah. Um, and as long as I have something to bring to the table. Um, and that's sort of how I, I see any sort of evolution- Mm happening. Um, and I'd like to hope that there's a lot that I can bring to the table, and it feels like it's a really exciting... We have a really exciting stint ahead of us- Yeah um, with the organization. Not least of which, because the political times we live in means that we're approaching our 30-year anniversary- Right in 2028. Okay. We then obviously have the election coming up in 2029, and then our strategy runs till 2030. So we have a long run time before- Mm looking at our new strategic direction in a new decade. Um, and I'm very much hoping to be part of that journey with Clinks. So what do you think, I mean, what attracted you to the role? You've never been a CEO before. You probably appreciated it was gonna be more work, longer hours, more pressure maybe. I don't know how you manage pressure, but I've been a CEO, I think I was a CEO for about 20-odd years. It wasn't easy. There were times when, like, you know, you feel a bit alone. You know, there are times when the scenarios, they feel, feel intractable or- Yes they're political with a small or even a big P in some cases. Mm. And you know, and especially infrastructure bodies. Yes. You know, it's hard because you've got lots of hungry mouths to feed, a lot of people to keep happy, let's say. Um, you've got to have some challenging conversations often, whether that's with government or maybe some of your members- Mm. Mm-hmm or, you know, it's just, it's a merry dance you've gotta play and, you know, making sure you do that with grace and, you know, a, an ethical- Yeah foundation- Yeah is hard. You know, how have, how have you found your first six months? Have there been times where you thought... I made the wrong decision, or you think- Not, not at all. Um, I was, you know, I think it'd be safe to say, um, I was really fortunate that I have kind of come up surrounded by really brilliant chief execs- Mm-hmm um, not, not least in my own organizations that I've worked for, but around me, which has been really, was helpful and really grounding- Yeah and, um, given me a good grasp on all things leadership and governance. And like I said- Mm-hmm I've just worked really closely with fantastic boards before, have been on boards before. Um, and I really, um, I think it would be safe to say that I've always been ready to take the reins- Mm-hmm of an organization. Um, I think anybody who's worked with me before would recognize that. And I really, um, value the opportunity to bring my own spin to things and take things- Mm-hmm in a particular direction. I feel very, um, confident in my ability to see the big picture, and therefore the actually the, the appeal of Clinked was it's a big picture playground- Mm-hmm essentially, where there's a lot happening. Clinked is across a lot of different moving parts, so that spinning of plates feels very natural to me. Again, it was very much part and parcel of my work before. Um, the nature of the organization I worked with, um, previously, Advance, was that we were across sort of three almost different distinct areas- Mm-hmm that operated in very different ways. So the way that the violence against women and girls, VAWG, sector works, very different to how things operate in criminal justice and, as you'll know, very different to how things work in- Mm all things young people. Indeed. So different stakeholders, different funders, operationally very distinct. Um, so that spinning of plates feels very, um, was a very natural stepping stone for me. Mm-hmm. And, um, and I really enjoy that ability to think strategically, think of a vision, and also work and develop a team to bring them along on the journey of how we get there. And I really, um, enjoy that idea of collective work and collaboration, as you'll have heard me say many times before. Mm-hmm. And so that, the idea of doing it at scale across a membership of over 500 members is not- Mm-hmm is not daunting. It will be. There will be challenges. Yeah. There'll be things that come up, but the excitement and intrigue of that vastly outweighs the, the downside. You know, I'll retract that statement one day when I'm- when I'm up at 2:00 AM writing a report- Indeed and dealing with a, dealing with a crisis. Mm. But that said, um, I do think that there's something- It is very easy to get bogged down with the negativity of the work. This is difficult work. Yeah. It's hard on the frontline. It's really difficult strategically. There's a lot of responsibility and risk being carried by voluntary organizations of all walks of life up and down the country, whether it's within their leadership team- Mm the staff on the ground, the board who hold ultimately the legal responsibility. And if you let that, the immense weight- Mm of that- Mm overpower you, it will just be suffocating. Yeah. So there's something to be said about just kind of Compartmentalizing that, holding it in a corner, being aware of it, being alert to it- Mm trying to get ahead of it, which is always the challenge, and not get embroiled in constant firefighting. Mm-hmm. Um, but trying to sort of keep an eye on what's the point, what's the vision, where do you wanna go, and what's the greater purpose? Mm. I think that helps mitigate some of the very dire, very- Mm bleak moments that come naturally- So- with the nature of the work y- you talked about 500 members. Mm-hmm. Um, believe you're on a bit of a road show. You've been- Yeah going around the country. What, what have you been learning from those visits? Oh, what have I not been learning? Um, it's been so brilliant, uh, and really so appreciative of the organizations that have graciously taken the time out- Mm to host me, 'cause I understand the realities of the day job. I know how much time it takes- Mm-hmm to, A, lose a, lose some hours of your week, but also arrange visits and make sure that people are available to be s- to be seen and spoken to and, and, um, to take me on tours of places physically. But it has been just such a, um, such a breath of fresh air, and kind of speaks to the point before. Mm. I've come away from every single visit and I think, "Oh, that's gonna be the best day. That's, you know, that was just... Knocked it out the park." Mm. "Such an incredible day. Amazing people, amazing work." And then the next one is just as scintillating, and it has really, um, it just helps that sort of constant motivation and inspiring me to sort of really make sure that we as an organization, as Clinks, are doing the best by our members. Mm. 'Cause they so deserve all of the accolades and the backing that they need to do their work and do it well. Because the work that's happening is truly fantastic and, you know, and it's been really helpful as well for me revisiting some spaces- Mm that I was in before, 'cause I've been out of... Uh, so, so for example, the male estate, I've been out of that for such a long time- Mm. that it's been really helpful getting back, um, up to speed with what's going on. And o- one of the things that has definitely struck me throughout all things, um, in the last six months, is how sort of decimated the prison estate has been by COVID. Mm. And that post-COVID aftermath of how the sort of rich, vibrant, um, hive of activity, whether it was with the libraries, uh, gym, chaplaincy, voluntary sector, purposeful activity, has really- Mm um, really died down and has been d- been diminished by all things in terms of not only the pandemic, but of course now the staffing crisis and all things, um, prison capacity. So that's been really helpful to get back in touch with- Mm firsthand, and challenges my preconceived notions of what exists, my image of what the prison estate looks like based on my time there many sort of years ago. Um, but- Some of the creativity that has come through the roadshow and some of the innovative work is just astounding. I was in a prison, uh, last week where there was an, the, the thread running throughout the entire offer from prisoners who are packaging Food parcels, so the prisoners inside would, uh, have a r- list of requests, and they're getting, you'll love this, they're getting, um, plantain, okra, yam- Mm prop, and that, like, really nice fruit and veg- Yeah and a really, you know, um, a whole range of different types of food that they wouldn't necessarily get otherwise. It's all packaged up by the guys. They're then, uh, getting it around the prison. They're even transporting it, um, via rottles- Mm to other places. Um, they have a departure lounge where people are leaving prisons. They run the caf, so they're trying to make sure that the offer through the caf is there. Mm. And it's all a social enterprise where the profits then get recycled to have- Right a resettlement package for the men who are leaving. Um, there's a community, um, food and clothing bank for families and for guys who are leaving that need new clothes, et cetera. Um, just this hive of an ecosystem where it's each moving part is giving back to the other. So fantastic. Backed by the prison. Mm. Uh, you know, um, and given the space and the sort of resource and the support to really flourish. And you just h- see those things and think, "Oh, I..." You just come away just so inspired. Yeah. I was in a women's center where they have an allotment, so they c- they, during COVID, where they couldn't do group activities in closed spaces, they acquired- Mm an allotment, again, with support and help and, you know, helpful connections in a real community-spirited way. Got an allotment where the women are there growing vegetables and flowers and plants. Mm. And they're com- making up, um, teas, and they're coming up with natural dyes- Mm to do cloth work. Just a whole range of crafts- I mean, this is where- and nature activities the voluntary sector really shines. I mean- Exactly it's not all good though, right? Let- It's not all good let's be honest. I think, you know, s- certainly many of our, uh, listeners will be dealing with the very difficult side of incarceration, you know, and seeing, you know, is, is Britain going down the route of the US where, you know, you- Mm prison and, and prisoners have become part of the money-making architecture- Yes of the country, you know? And I think, um, I'd certainly be... It'd be remiss of me not to sort of maybe ask you some sort of trickier questions, particularly around, you know, we know that, uh, our prison system is systemically racist. I know that's how I would, um, communicate it. And, you know, I'd, I'd, I would be, I am personally interested in knowing your perspective about, you know, what, how does that make you feel as the, as the- Mm-hmm CEO of Clinks? Um, you know, what can we collectively be doing to address, you know, the disproportionate numbers of Black, Muslim, Gypsy, Roma traveler communities- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm in, in our prison estate, especially men. So- We know there's not been much change over the last 10, 15- Mm-hmm you know, we've had the Lammy Review, we've had the, the Young Review, and so many other reviews, but it just seems to me that especially right now we've got a government that just doesn't wanna grapple with a conversat- a sensible conversation about race and, and racism. So, you know, for our listeners, you know, would you mind sharing a bit more of your perspective on, A, how big an issue is it In your mind. Mm-hmm. Uh, and how do you think we should work collectively to try and address that from a voluntary spe- sec- perspec- perspective, and perhaps more as a, you know, wider society? Mm. Well, I definitely think, and, you know, we can speak about some of the work that Clink has been involved with, with yourselves. Um, but I definitely think that one of the, the key issues is that having a cl- keen eye on tracking disparity. Mm-hmm. And that, and I think there's a, the issue as well is that connectivity be- between what's happening across the system, and sometimes there is a focus on one part of the system and not looking at things in the- Mm-hmm whole. So when I, when I say that, I mean what's happening at point, at stop and search, point of arrest- Mm-hmm in the courts processes, sentencing, then again, prison stays- Mm-hmm you know, adjudications, all of those issues, parole, all the decisions around recall and, you know, the, the response of probation to somebody through that resettlement process and understanding the whole pathway. And, um, we, um, very kindly were invited to support a piece of research done recently on cu- on that cumulative disadvantage. Yeah. And that's kind of shed a light on some of those numbers. So I think it's that sort of, um... And again, that was a, and that was a piece of work- Do you think government lacks the data, or is just not looking at it? Well, no, no, that was actually a piece of research done with- Mm um, Ministry of Justice, so it's, it's just come out this summer. So I think it's then the momentum is now, you know, once there's a real clear understanding of what the picture is looking like- Mm-hmm then what are the levers to address that? Um, and I think one of the things that we are keenly observing is the impact of the Sentencing Act- Mm-hmm and what that will mean, and particularly wherever there's, it's created points for more subjectivity in decision-making. Mm-hmm. Actually, is there enough of, enough of a framework, enough guardrails around how decisions are being made, that there's an eye on that equalities link? And certainly what I would suggest in terms of the, um, from a voluntary sector point of view, I think that is where having a more holistic, intersectional way of supporting the people that we work with is really fundamental- Mm-hmm so that that is an, that, that is a thread that is then running across services and that services are designed from the beginning with the idea of intersectionality in mind- Mm-hmm and that it's then running through operationally. And so it's not a bolt-on, it's not an add-on. That being said, there is also then a need- Mm for a specific ecosystem of organizations that are by and for, that understand their communities, know the communities that they serve. Mm. There's also then that collaborative link between then those organizations having the opportunity to work with- more sort of universal services to upskill and train and sort of build in that cultural competency across the ecosystem of voluntary sector that I think is definitely something that we have made steps towards, but we can do more of. Yeah. Um, so that is something that I'd like to see. And, uh, but, and linking it back to the point before is when I go out and see some of the really innovative, creative work that the voluntary sector is capable of- Yeah there is something to be said about Putting the funding in the hands of the sector who are on the ground, who are seeing- Mm-hmm the work that's being delivered, they know what the s- the needs of their communities are. They are really well-placed to u-understand and identify what those models of delivery and design should look like. Mm-hmm. And that intersection between, um, central policy dev- design and commissioning design being linked with the local place-based- Yeah approach, that join up is really crucial. Well, look, I, I, I wanna pick up on the money thing because, uh, as you know, uh, one of our f- our three big themes are money, justice, and repair, uh, money being the first of those themes. And, you know, I'm sure some of our listeners, you only need to do a little bit of AI wizardry to try and get a sense of the scale of how money flows in and out of the criminal justice system, right? Yeah. Billions spent on prisons, and it feels, just from a, you know, outsider perspective, that most of the money goes to a small number of prime contractors- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm um, through very large contracts. So if, if the reality is that those by and for organizations generally are small, local, grassroots- Mm-hmm some of the terms that we use, um, how are they gonna get a slice of that, uh, that money if the system just isn't designed to procure their specialties, their expertise? Yeah. I mean, what, what, what can we do? What are you gonna be doing in that space? And do you think HMPPS is alive to that dynamic? I think it's a two-way street. I think, first of all, that there has been a real focus on, um, like you said, prison build and construction, electronic monitoring, justice AI, digital tools. Mm. So lots, you know, drones to police, um, you know, drug delivery in prisons. That doesn't, all of that doesn't sound very person-centered- So- in the way you, you described it. So it's exactly that. That sort of, um... And I, I understand that it's a neat package that the public can un- can, can, um- Mm resonate with the public, but the work that we know that makes a difference, that rebuilds lives, that shifts the dynamic, that does drive reduced re-offending, that does drive increased public protection, all of that is linked to the relational sort of person-centric work delivered- Mm by the voluntary sector. Um, so we would absolutely be advocating for more of that. Mm. And so often that gets seen as the soft outcome work. Mm-hmm. And actually, so much happens in those moments, and that, the idea that, um, human beings can sort of- flip a switch and sort of- Mm um, do a 180 overnight is, is s- certainly, um, would be ideal but isn't how people- No, it's not real. It's not how people are built. It's not, it's not the real world, no. And so that sort of investment in longer term- Mm um, solutions and being able to- Yeah track how those outcomes are being accomplished over the longer term is definitely something we'd wanna see. Um, the... I do think as well that there is something to be said about, um, slightly kind of Field of Dreams and sort of, you know, making things- Mm happen, um, on its own accord and not waiting to be granted. I think there's a lot of conversation that could be h- can be sort of, um, driven, and I think that the work that Clink serves to do is try to create spaces for that conversation or create spaces for that convening to happen. Mm-hmm. So hopefully with the work that's happening around the Racial Justice Collective that we're planning to, um- Mm sort of reinvigorate coming up, we're hoping that we can really bring organizations together to have a collective voice. Mm-hmm. To really think about how can we support each other, and how can we create, uh, um- Of the visibility about all the fantastic work that already is happening, that already individual organizations are doing a fantastic job as it stands. How can we bring more visibility to that work? Not just for government, but for trust- Mm-hmm and foundation funders as well to sort of see some of the things that are g- uh, are taking place. Um, and there have been, you know, there have been pockets of this work before. There has been sort of funding for by and for organizations in some areas. Mm-hmm. So really sort of singing the praises when that is happening, shining a spotlight on it, but also showing the, the fruits that kind of come out of that, and saying, "Well, this is what happens when you fund the sector to do this particular type- Yeah of work. Um, and also, too, I think that there is something about, um, trying to find those opportunities for partnership working, and it's something that, um, is very near and dear to me in terms of how do we make spaces. And sometimes it's difficult with- Mm-hmm restricted funding and really, um, strict criteria in terms of the delivery of the work, but how do we create spaces and make either room for seats at the table in terms of discussions around power and- Mm-hmm decision-making, but also very much pragmatically. And if you're designing a service for a particular service user, and that service needs to be culturally competent and rich in diversity and making sure that the awareness of the issues at hand are being encapsulated in the, the model and the delivery- Yeah well, you need to bring experts to the table to do that. Mm-hmm. So there is, there is nothing that's stopping any organization when the, um, funding channels allow to then bring those partners on board. It doesn't have to come from on high. Mm. It can be that the sector can build that partnership approach for itself and build in the sort of, um, speciality of by and for organizations into the work that it wants to do, and making that part of its vision, making that part of its strategic, um, declared objectives is within the gift of organizations. Yeah. Well, certainly, I mean, for our listeners, we'll, we'll definitely want to come back to this topic of commissioning and procurement and the architecture of that and how money flows, and it's been really useful getting your perspective on that, Summer. Just, um, I suppose some, some of our listeners may well want to know, well, how much influence does she really have, and how does it work? I mean, in a average week for the CEO of Clinks, do, are you talking to government on a daily basis? Have you... I mean, I'm assuming you've not got the prime minister's, um, mobile on speed dial. But we've got a new, new minister, um- Yep Alex Norris, you know, are, are you, have you had talk to him yet? Are, are you gonna be able to? Do you think, do you think, you know, if you had that moment in the lift, just you and him, what are you gonna say? Are you gonna say, "We need some more money for Clink?" Are you gonna say, "Our members need to be respected"? Or are you gonna say, "We need to change the commissioning architecture?" If you had that moment- Mm-hmm What would you say, and how does it work in terms of your personal relationship with government? So I think that that's definitely been, um, one of the most striking things that I've seen since coming to Clinks, is how much, and I've, you know, said this before in a post, um, about how much of the work that Clinks does is absolutely behind the scenes. Hmm. So it is very... And it's not just about, um, that's not just true in our work with the gov- with government, but it's true of our work with funders and members. You know, organizations come to us with matters, um, for support that we have to deal with discreetly and in confidence. Mm-hmm. Um, and likewise, some of the work that we do with government, the reason why it works is because we're doing it without shouting from the rooftops about it. Yeah. So it can sometimes look like a bit of a vacuum where there's a q- a question mark of what is Clinks doing, and that's one of the reasons why we've recently started up our quarterly impact report. Right. To try and get some more visibility- Hmm so people can see what's happening behind the scenes, 'cause it is very much, it does feel sometimes very much like a film set. There's what you see on camera, and then there's all the moving parts- Mm-hmm um, behind the scenes, and, um, much like our room here. But, um, I think that, um, Clinks has built up a really brilliant relationship with government officials, and not just in Ministry of Justice- Hmm and HMPPS, but within other departments like Education, DWP, and that absolutely is, um, I think a byproduct of not only the work that the team has done, really driven strong relationships and the fantastic team that's done that over many years at Clinks, um, but also because the, the evidence that is there, and I think that there is a real traction and a genuine understanding of what the voluntary sector brings to the table, and it's a m- and I think the question is now trying to find on both sides of the fence- Hmm um, to put a proverbial fence between us, but it's trying to find, um, how do we harness that, and how do we make the most of that? And so one of the things that absolutely drives that conversation is, um, the evidence about the outcomes that the, the, the sector achieves, and that, and you know, you, we either sit in rooms and we talk about different figures or anecdotal information, case studies, and you can see members of the room sit up and take notice. Hmm. So that, the, the sort of on-the-ground reality of what the challenges are, but also where the wins- Mm-hmm are happening absolutely make a difference. The understanding about what the trust and foundation landscape and the sort of philanthropy backing that h- sits behind the voluntary sector makes a huge difference because we bring a weight- Hmm of tens of millions of pounds of additional funding- Yeah to the sector. That if the voluntary sector were to disappear tomorrow, would not exist. Yeah. So the collective sort of weight of not only the VCS, but also the funders that sit behind us is really powerful. And then, um, you know, the facts and figures through Clink's State of the Sector report that shows, and for this ti- this year, for the first time, we did a financial analysis, um, supported by NCVO, and we did an entire sweep of all criminal justice organizations and did a compare and contrast, so criminal justice voluntary- Mm-hmm community organizations versus sort of, um, any charity. And in that comparison, we are able to really track how, um, vulnerable the sector is from a funding perspective. So, um, you know, sort of 75% of the organizations that we, the, it were part of the survey, and it was over 200 organizations that participated, talked about that the fact that their services are not fully funded. Yeah. And it then means that they are self-sustaining projects. For most of them, that's through their own reserves. Mm. So putting the sector in such a vulnerable position, which is even more, um, exacerbated for small grassroots by and for organizations. Yeah, I mean, this, the, the, I mean, you know, really welcome hearing it. I think, um, these are well-trodden paths and, you know, I hear these arguments a lot- Mm-hmm from infrastructure organizations. I suppose, again, coming back to my, my question, if you, if new Justice Minister Alex Norris- Mm-hmm could do one thing- Yeah what do you think would have the biggest impact for- Certainly the, the, the smaller by and for organizations which- Yeah as you've described are underfunded, undervalued. What, what, what, what's the one thing- I think the... I think it's twofold. They, it's, um, and the two often come hand-in-hand, um, in that there is something to do about access, so organizations being set up to succeed and not set up to fail. Mm-hmm. So un-pa-picking some of those barriers that exist. So not being able to get into a prison, not being able to get, um, somebody unlocked to come to your, um- Mm workshop because there's not enough staff. You know, that sort of the making sure that the wheels can actually turn to deliver- Mm-hmm successfully. And of course, and then hand-in-hand with that is then funding, and essentially trusting the sector- Mm with unrestricted funding as much as possible to then have the, and to then have sort of proper outcomes that you can be measured, can be evaluated. But giving them the freedom to do that within s- sort of, um, within certain parameters and some breathing space- Mm to do what they do well, that so often all of that, um, all of the work that gives voluntary sector their je ne sais quoi is happening through blood, sweat, and tears- Yeah and pockets of additional funding and trying to cobble together projects, when actually if they were just well-funded and had that sustainability, that long-term visibility- Mm and were able to really sort of plan- Yeah and properly resource their work, look after their staff, the whole system would work so much more smoothly. So I suppose in essence it's- combating the idea of the sort of false economy- Mm-hmm that by keeping resources lean, it's being efficient and effective. Yeah. When actually with a bit more injection of funding and support and trust and access, the sector could really flourish in a way that I think is stagnated. And we're losing the, we're losing the best outcomes from the sector, and we're also creating a self-perpetuating myth that can be held that the sectors n- deliver. Mm. So w- but we can't deliver if we have one hand tied behind our back. Indeed. So how do we find the right balance? And I think balance is really key in all of this. And how do we work in synergy with government to find that sweet spot of where we can be trusted, respected allies who are delivering well- Mm-hmm and are evidencing our delivery and are trusted to sort of get on with the work at hand- Yeah in a way that really speaks to what the community needs. Yeah. Well, look, um, you know, we're coming to the end of this fantastic interview, I've gotta say, uh, with Summer. And for a first podcast, I think she's done expertly well. Um, and I'm just wondering, you know, you seem to be the sort of person, everything, you know, you've said how well you, not how well, but how you manage competing pressures and challenges and- Well, I have three sons, so I have to learn- Oh, well, there you go to juggle lots of balls. In, in that case, yeah, the weekend must be full of balls. All things football. Footballs- Tennis, yeah rugby balls, tennis balls, et cetera. But, um, joking aside, you know, I mean, you strike me as somebody who's, you know, very self-aware. You're confident. You know the issues, right? You've been there and got the T-shirt- Mm on both sides of the, the camp, let's say. Is there anything that w- worrying you going forward? Is there anything that you think s- even in five years, 10 years, I'm not sure I'll be able to crack this? Yeah. Is there any- I mean... Of course. And, um, you know, and, and, and equally I just, I do think that- What, um, buoys me up is, like I said, the voluntary sector is full of such intelligent, you know, genius, um, people doing fantastic work, coming up with really clever ideas, working in really, um, convivial ways- Mm-hmm and being really collaborative and really creative. And I just feel very privileged that I'm able to be in that Petri dish and absorb some of that good practice. Mm-hmm. Because we're all learning, and we're all, you know, endlessly honing our, how we do things and deal with things. And of course, everybody has their off days. Mm-hmm. A bit tired there, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, um, how do- does Clinks as an organization sort of stand up amongst all of the challenges and the noise and be that kind of beacon of, a sort of encouraging light and a supportive light for our members. Mm-hmm. And I think actually it's a two-way street, and we get a lot of inspiration and motivation from them. Mm-hmm. And I hope that we can then re-sort of, um, it, sort of circulate that energy back around the sector. But in terms of, um So I think the positive, there's a role for positivity in kind of keeping a true north and sort of keeping a eye on the prize and the future. Mm-hmm. But in terms of challenges, um, I think that the main challenge for the justice sector, which will not be a surprise to everyone, yes, there's a prison capacity, but actually I think it's probation. And I know that there's been whisperings of that here and there, but I think that the scale of the issue is far beyond what maybe is getting picked up in the mainstream press. Mm-hmm. Um, which might be a good thing. It gives, it takes the spotlight off and gives p- you know, the, you know, the key, um, officials involved time to get things sorted. Um, but I do think that investment in probation is really key. Mm-hmm. I think the role that probation officers have played historically and the way that that's been changed, um, they were so instrumental to having that person-centered approach. Yeah. And that now trying to find, I appreciate that caseloads don't quite allow for that, but finding that opportunity to lean on the voluntary sector rather than it being a bit of a competition, but really sort of letting the voluntary sector in to support, um, would be really in- integral to kind of keeping the probation system, um, from falling down when all things Sentencing Act come through. Yeah. Which I think is a reality. And certainly what I think in terms of, um, one, you know, when I, you asked at the beginning about when my time at Clinks would come to an end, and I, all good planning I think starts at the end and works its way backwards. Mm-hmm. And I would love to see, I would love to leave, um, the sector whenever I exit, um, stage left, would be to see much more collaboration Amongst organizations, so partnerships within the voluntary sector. Mm-hmm. I'd love to see more cross, um, departmental work, more co-commissioning, more collaborative amongst statutory agencies, not just within justice- Mm-hmm but beyond justice. Um, and I really would love to see more collaboration across the victims and justice sector, which stand kind of on two sides of the same coin. Mm-hmm. And how can we find that connectivity there? And underpinning all of that, um, the approach that I think is a big, is a bit of a vacuum and is missing vision and purpose is early intervention and prevention. Yeah. And what is happening with children and young people. Mm-hmm. And again, it's a piece of work that Clink has been doing for a very long time in terms of the impact of, um, imprisonment on families, and really trying to pick that up from an earlier stage. And of course, there are, you know, there are developments happening, um, politically in that space, so that sort of identification of children affected by parental imprisonment and sort of better support services. But just in this wider sense I think young people are facing a really difficult time right now. Mm-hmm. They are guinea pigs navigating a whole new world and a new frontier. Mm. And actually, the support that happens at an earlier stage is so critical, and that sort of getting things right upstream so we don't have these problems- Yeah downstream is critical, I think, to addressing the issue of repair, because actually you don't want to be in a position where you're repairing any of the damage- Exactly that has been done. So how can we do that at an earlier stage? Yeah. Well, great. I mean, it sounds like you've just laid out your manifesto- for the next 10 years. I know you're not political in that way, but it certainly felt like a, a very clear manifesto. So as we come to a close to the end of the interview, um, A, I'd like to thank you for being so honest with us. Thanks for having me, Jake. Um, you've given us lots of juicy content about how your mind works. I can see the cogs in your brain ticking over. Hopefully the next podcast you do will be so much smoother. Um, just- This will be my one and only, Jake. Is it? Is it? Oh, well, I was hoping we'd be able to get Summer back, right? For some, you know, more detailed conversation, perhaps with some of those big primes or some of, maybe, you know, you could have an interview with, uh, some of your members on, on camera. That'd be really interesting about- Absolutely some of the specific issues you've raised. So just as a sort of closing, um, request really, I mean, for your members, and particularly your Buy-in for- Mm-hmm uh, Black and Brown-led members, what should they be really steely focused on going forwards over the next six to 12 months? What do you think, th- th- where should they spend their energies o- over and above running great organizations? I think that connection piece is just really key, and just finding, um... It's really difficult when you have a day job and you are up against the clock all the time, but finding the opportunity to not just make those connections, but really cement the connections and, and then talk about it, and be really visible and vocal about all the good work that you're doing, not just individually, but together. And gathering that momentum. It's something magnetic, I think, about collaboration that then others hear about and they learn about and they want to come to the table. And so creating that sort of magnetic space that feels like there's momentum and energy- I think is only going to be beneficial- Yeah in the long run. These things take time. It does, you know, it's, it, partnership is not easy. It's very difficult. It's very energy consuming. But when it sings, it's just- Yeah such a great melody. So that's what I would, I would suggest. And then finally, to those, uh, people listening who may not be members of Clinks, maybe haven't heard of Clinks- Or think that it's The Clink, the, the fantastic restaurant or The Clink, yeah, it's a totally different thing. Uh, but, you know, what, why should people, why should a, you know, black-led youth organization join Clinks, for instance? What, what's, what's, what's in it for them? Totally. So we, so Clinks are the only, um, organization that focus on criminal justice, and I think that that's absolutely, um, really evident in the work that we do, that we are the only organization that is connecting the dots in the way that we do. And whether that happens really publicly or whether that happens behind the scenes- Mm-hmm um, it is always worth sticking your head above the parapet and letting us know that you're there. We have a directory of services with over 1,000 organizations. Mm-hmm. So we're always looking to foster that sort of partnership and collaboration. We might put you in touch with somebody, or we might let you know about an event that's happening, and I, and it's, um this sector is small but mighty, and there's been a lot of fantastic ground that's been covered, lots of lessons learned, lots of trials and tribulations- Mm-hmm lots of, yeah, we did it like that two governments ago, and now we're back to that again. And so reinventing the wheel is sort of a waste of energy and time, whereas you can come to Clinks and find your tribe in whatever way that looks. It might be in your local area. It might be in your thematic, whether that's women, families- Mm-hmm um, and arts. And, you know, sort of finding that space of belonging, I think helps, and it avoids going over old ground and kind of gets you there where you wanna be quicker. And especially all things criminal justice, it's a really specialized field. You need to, for, you know, not only do you need to, need to know a lot of acronyms, you need to know a lot about the complexity, the vulnerabilities, the sort of trauma-informed approaches that are required across the board. Mm-hmm. And actually, um, doing that with a running start is always a helpful place to begin. Great. Thanks for talking to us, Summer. Thanks, Jake. Thanks for the time. Looking forward to next time. Cheers. See you soon. Bye-bye.