Ep. 2 · Season 1
What Girls Are Telling the Criminal Justice System: Dali Kaur on Why Everyone Needs to Listen
Girls told Dali Kaur they were being taken out of lessons to learn about consent while the boys stayed in the classroom. “Why is the pressure and the burden always on the girls?” she asks.
Dali, Director of Criminal Justice and Young Women and Girls’ Services at Advance, draws on 15 years across prisons, young offender settings and frontline work. Around 53% of the women using Advance’s services are from Black and Global Majority backgrounds, and sexual offences make up about a third of referrals into some of them. She says commissioners must fund long-term support and properly resource specialist by-and-for organisations. Her standard: “You said, and we did.”
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Well, I am so excited to bring you our first BGM Briefing podcast. And, um, we've been blessed by having the fantastic Darley Kaur who's a member of the Advance team, and she's a director of criminal justice in young women and girls services at Advance. Been there 15 years, I believe. Maybe, uh, is that right? Am I getting my numbers correct? Uh, at Advance three and a half, but- Oh, been in the sector in the sector, Hector. I do apologize. Sorry. Yeah, you- yeah. Um, so she is super experienced, and one of the reasons I was so keen to have Darley on this podcast was because at Black Men for Change, we're really interested in unearthing and, and bringing to the fore the issues facing women and girls particularly, uh, in the criminal justice system. So I think Darley is somebody who's gonna be really honest with us, um, and she's gonna share some, you know, uh, thoughts, challenges, value. You'll, we'll get a sense of her value base, so I'm really excited about this first conversation. I'm hoping you are too, Darley, and, um, let's get into it. So, um- Before, actually, before we start diving into questions about the professional side of life, right, we're all humans in this, uh, criminal justice ecosystem, and, uh, I'm just really interested in your background. Tell us a bit more about where you were born, who you are, if you've got family, and maybe a bit about your roots. I mean, just so for transparency, um, I was born in Lancaster, so I'm a Northerner. You might hear a little bit of a twinge in my accent. Uh, and my dad's Belizean, my mum's White English, so I'm a, I'm a sort of mixed heritage person, and I managed to get a couple of years, uh, as a small child living in Belize. So I had a sort of taste of what it was to live outside the sort of Eurocentric, um, way of life. But I think that set me up nicely for, uh, you know, the realities of living in Britain, certainly Britain as we know now with some of the rise of the far right. Being from Lancaster, we were one of two or three Black families, so you knew you were different, and you were told you were different, even though most of my mates, uh, you know, I loved them to bits, but yeah, you felt a little bit special. So anyway, enough about me. I'm really interested, who is Dali? Tell us more. So Dali is, uh, one of six siblings. Uh, a big, uh, family. Come from the Midlands originally, brought up in the Midlands. Mm-hmm. Um, Dad was a migrant, Mum was, came over to this country at the age of 12, grafted, worked, uh, in the mills all his life. Uh, hardworking. Um, memories are that of, um, you know, Dad just working all the hours- Mm-hmm uh, just to put a roof and food on the table. Traditional background, Mum stay at home, bring us up, all of those, but brought up in a S- a Sikh, brought up as a Sikh in a Sikh household with beliefs and cultures. Mm-hmm. Um, obviously with that comes, um- The, the perception of that boys are of higher hierarchy- Mm hold higher value, carry on- Mm-hmm the family name. Girls are more to working, as in passed on. Right. Uh, so that was always the way it was. Education was key, but we were never deprived of- Mm-hmm um, sort of anything that we needed or wanted. Um, went through school, uh, I won't say as, um, uh, as a highest performing or good girl. Uh, went- Mm through school, spent most of my time at the back of the classroom, just because stood out. Mm-hmm. Because moved into, uh, an area which was very, um, prominent in British, White English. Mm. Uh, suffered a lot of bullying at school. Right. Named as the curry girl. Remember sitting outside and just not mixing in. Mm. Having no friendship group, which is quite sad in the sense of, like, your siblings facing those similar challenges. Went on to secondary school, became louder, displayed it through other forms of behavior, as in, yeah, just reacting- Mm because now you found a group of friends that were alike, who looked similar in appearance. Yeah. Um, got... Did I get myself into trouble? No, not really. Did I attend lessons? No, not really. Mm. Came out with a good level of GCSEs. Um, went into college and got married at a very young age. Right. And that was the way the culture worked- Mm back then I still remember one scenario which still stays with me, which I think is important. Uh, a group of British white girls writing messages about a group of us Black and Asian girls- Mm on the school gates, and the headteacher deciding it was our fault and asking us to- Right scrub in front of the whole school- Wow after school. Mm. And that stayed with me throughout. Haunting. Yeah. Haunting, yeah. And that was only because we were a group that stood out because we were of Black- Mm and global majority, um, heritage, which is how it felt. I'm not saying which is how it was- Mm but how it felt. Uh, went on to work as an accounts manager. Went on, um, got married, had my first son at 20. Mm. And then, uh, went into, um, a household where it was very traditional. That marriage sort of came to an end, and then, uh, moved into London as a single parent- Right raising two boys. Yeah. And yeah. Well, look, I mean, thanks for being so open about your start in life. I mean, some pretty traumatic things there, and I, I could imagine that's shaped your view of the world. It's probably shaped the sort of work that you do, and I'm sure it probably- 100% helps you do your job better because you've been there and got the T-shirt, as they say. And unfortunately, we're now in 2026, and we still- Mm have some of the same issues facing- Mm girls at school. Yeah. Uh, you know, I don't believe in the word unconscious bias. Mm-hmm. Um, so for me- Well, why is that? Do you mind me asking? 'Cause I don't believe that there is such a thing as unconscious bias. You think it's all conscious? Yeah. And that's personal. Right. That's personal. I'm not saying that doesn't happen. Mm. But I think it's really important, um- To emphasize that we're in 2026- Mm and I'm a woman who's heading- Mm towards her 50s, and I'm still seeing similar- Mm behaviors in what is supposed to be safe school environments. Mm. And I think it's, the question then of why I'm in this sector is probably answered- Yeah through that. Yeah. And, you know, so you do a lot, lot of work around women and girls. In fact, it is your work. Um, how do you think then, you know, your own sort of life story has helped you become better at the work you do, do you think? And- I think- How relevant is it? I think it's really important despite what background you come from- Mm whether that's White British, Asian, Black Caribbean, Black African, Sikh, Bangladeshi. I think the category is so broad. Mm. And I think that is a key thing that I think is yet not being sort of brought to the forefront. Mm-hmm. That one... It's like one shoe doesn't fit all. Mm. And it's similar to that, that one service cannot do 100% of all the outcomes that are needed. Mm. And I think being a y- you know, my younger self and being through that journey, and then having two boys of that, of Asian heritage as well- Mm I think it's really important that all services, despite what background, give that, uh, level of wraparound support. Yeah. And there's a clear understanding of those that come from, you know, Black or global majority background. I think that's important. Mm-hmm. Have you seen the services evolve over the sort of... I mean, you said 15 years in the, i- in, in the sector, and four years was it at VANS? Yeah, yeah. So have, have... Are you seeing services evolve? I mean, there's- Or are they pretty similar to they always, what they always were? I think there's definitely a funding and a policy, um, awareness- Right around it I don't think the question is in, is it fair or unfair? I think the question is there's still inequalities- Mm taking place. So I think there could be a wider question of why is that still happening- Mm even though there's so much policy- Mm and there's so much, um, I wouldn't say so much, but there's investment when we're talking about support for Black or global majority backgrounds. Mm. I think, um, why do we ask ourselves, why are we still in the same position to say that inequality still exists? Yeah. And, you know, you talked about, um, services being really tailored for the individual, right? And, you know- Yeah the idea that one size fits all is, is so outdated, right? So give us a sense of the sorts of things that you think are very relevant for Asian girls, for instance, who are in touch with the criminal justice system. What would- Yeah. So I think- What do you know works, and what is to be avoided, perhaps? So I think when you're looking at, um, a whole systems approach- Mm-hmm I think that works. Mm-hmm. And I think it's really key and important that- organizations know that they can't do all the roles. And I think- Mm I'm fortunate to be in a charity that's made up of 30 partnerships. Yeah. Um, and I think I'm really fortunate that I've rema- and the reason why I've remained is because the organization recognizes that they're not a specialist in all areas. Mm-hmm. But I think what we see is we do not do a tick box exercise. Mm. And the services that I oversee are very based upon, led by what the young girl or what the woman is telling us. Mm. And I think that's the key. And the key is to say, actually, this is outside of our remit. Mm. We need to bring in specialist partners- Yeah into this, and we do that through organizations such as- Mm Hibiscus, um, Swim. Right. Working with sort of Black and global majority organizations. Hibiscus working with migrant organizations. Mm-hmm. Our women's centers provide that. Mm. When we're looking at our young women and girls, we've set up a safe space for girls to come. Mm-hmm. They can come in and just watch Netflix. Yeah. They can come in and actually have one-to-one. Mm. We've invited parents as well to show them that this isn't a place, 'cause still in 2026, those from Asian backgrounds, they're still not to mix boys with girls. Right. There's still that cultural- Mm-hmm shift that needs to happen- Mm around mixed spaces. And what we find from the girls that come into, um, our centers is they might make, you know, disclosures- Yeah of abuse going on within the household, and not being given the opportunities. Mm-hmm. Which, um, as an Asian woman, I'd say it's very set by cultural traditions and expectations. Mm-hmm. So it's about moving that narrative and moving that story, which I think we do really well in- Yeah sort of, you know, providing homework clubs- You know, tuition is offered to the son- Mm-hmm but won't be offered to the boy. Yeah. Uh, I mean, to the girl, as an example, because he's the one- Mm who should be holding that position. So we provide those services. We understand, like, even as an Asian, it's so broad. Yeah. You have your Pakistani, Bangladeshi- Mm-hmm Sikhs, Hindus, you know, a numerous number of individuals- Mm and young women and girls if, who are told to fit into one box. Mm. But actually, we're so different. Yeah. Similar to Black Afro-Caribbeans as a, and the Caribbeans, and, you know- Mm-hmm young girls from, you know, from different heritage. It looks very, very different. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's human nature to try and make things simple, but in actual fact, we live very complex- Yeah multifaceted lives, right? So, I mean, one of the things that I was really interested in was your sort of positivity towards, um, partnering with others. I mean, how does that work at Advanced? Do you- I mean, it's- Do, is it written down? Is it more about the relationships between you and maybe other people in the sector? Tell me a bit more about how those partnerships work, 'cause I, it's my view that the more we partner, the stronger we get. But tell me, tell me more about, you know, Swim, Hibiscus, um, you know, where those all lie there. Yeah. So I think it's important. So we look- Mm as an organization at what our data's showing. Yeah. Our demographics is showing that 53% of the women who come to access our services, especially through our criminal justice services- Mm-hmm and even those for our young women and girls, come from a Black or Global Majority background. You know, we can provide that safeguarding support- Mm that crisis intervention there and then. We can provide that level of need. But that specialist- Mm-hmm counseling services, we know those from Black and Global Majority funding needs to be looked at in that- Yeah 'cause counseling looks totally different. Mm. You know, what a young Asian girl or a Black girl's gonna come with is gonna be so different- Mm to what that might require for a British White- Mm girl. Not that those needs differ, 'cause the needs are all there. Yeah, yeah. But it's just that level of understanding that actually, to unpick what's going on, we really need someone who's got a real cultural or- You know, understanding of what that level of support is- Right which we can provide, and we do provide. But actually bringing in that extra layer always improve i- improves outcomes- Mm for that young woman and girls. But sometimes the funding just isn't there. And do you find that the, the funding process, when you're pitching for, you know, to expand a new service and you've, you wanna partner with one of the organizations you mentioned or another one, does that process allow for a partnership to really develop, do you think? Do you think the commissioning environment supports partnerships between particularly By and For organizations? I mean, there's a massive attempt. Mm. There's a massive focus on partnership and whole systems approach. Mm. But actually, do the smaller By and Fors have the right governance? Mm. Um, as in they, they have the governance, but do they have the funding to have big teams to do bid writing- Yeah, yeah to infrastructure, uh, to support with that process? I think- What I've seen in my own experience is funding's very national. Mm-hmm. And actually, it's short term, so you don't get the longer term outcomes that are needed. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, what you get is small interventions. Mm-hmm. Um, and where we've seen funding is long term, you know, you know that that reduces re-offending. Mm-hmm. That ensures that you're putting the woman or the young girl- Mm-hmm in a stable position. Mm-hmm. What some funding doesn't allow, where these short pockets of funding, is you're plastering. Yeah, yeah. You're putting a plaster- I mean, typically- to cover- how long are the sorts of relationships you would have with a young girl or- I mean, they vary. Um, in our CJS services, we're very lucky in London, we have additional funding coming from other streams- Mm-hmm where support can be longer term. So after- Mm women finish their probation or intervention, they can get longer term support. Yeah. But when you're looking at regions, it's very based on, um, what that intervention is. I mean, for young women and girls, we know better outcomes happen, 'cause trust- Mm um, is massive for young women and girls. They need to build trust with their mentor. Mm-hmm. And, and in order to date that, to do that, that takes a long period of time, a long period of, um, sort of building that up. And when trust does build- Mm the walls come down. Yeah. And actually, what is really going on surfaces. Mm-hmm. And that's what is a positive outcome. It's not just what's surfacing at the top- Mm-hmm it's actually going- Mm-hmm right to the core of what, how have you come to this service, I think, is key and important. And are you... I mean, I think when we had a bit of a, um, pre-chat before w- we kicked off with this podcast, you'd mentioned, I think, that you felt from your, sort of, view, vantage point, that, you know, there was an increase in violence against women and girls going on. And give, give, give our listeners a bit of a flavor of, as to what you can see at Advance, and what some of your partners can see about what's going on. We hear a lot in the news about the manosphere and, you know, the rise of misogyny and, you know, the links probably to some of the far right stuff that's going on. But beyond that particular specific set of issues, w- what's happening for women and girls at the moment? I think peer-on-peer pressure- Mm is massive Um, online abuse Mm-hmm So the bullying doesn't stop at the school gate. Mm-hmm. Going back 20 years in my time- Yeah you know, bullying would stop when the bell rings. Yeah. I think now it goes on. Mm. It can go throughout the night. What happens, that carries it way, its way home- Mm impacts the whole family network- Mm which can then result in mental health, substance misuse. Mm. And unfortunately We were looking at support for girls at 13 plus- Mm and 14 plus. Advance now support girls as young as nine. Wow. And how else are your services adapting to that, particularly the sort of 24-hour nature of our existence? Yeah. And I think it's about training. Mm. It's about ensuring the right training is in place for, um, you know, key workers who are doing that frontline- Mm-hmm um, delivery. It's ensuring that their wellbeing- Mm as well. Um, ensuring that, you know, you have the right support in place. But I think it's, again, it goes back to that, um, wraparound support, liaising with schools- Mm and actually are the schools aware that this is taking place, and holding them accountable. You know- Mm is, schools are supposed to be a safe, nurturing place. Mm. You know, if this is going on, are they aware? And I think we've unfortunately seen through some of our services that sexual offenses- Mm are, you know, make up a third of our referrals. Really? Okay. And that includes rape- Mm as young as 13. You know, and I think it, it's really important that without, with our young women and girls as well, it's awareness building- Yeah around grooming, criminal exploitation, uh, county lines. Mm. All of those were sort of labeled as a boy thing, a young men- Yeah, yeah and boys. I mean, my background has been working in male estates and prisons- Mm such as Belmarsh, Brixton, and Isis- Mm with young offenders as well. So those behaviors that were well known to sort of surface in young men and boys- Mm are now, you know, happening in that- Yeah in the criminal exploitation, gangs, grooming, all of that is taking place. And I think it's about, it's not a blame game. Mm. And I think at A- Advance, um, we held an event in the Houses of Commons last week- Mm where we wanted to say, like, it's about this is a society-wide problem. Yeah. Actually, the boys that we're saying that are causing this, do they know what consent is? Mm. You know, do they know by sharing a nude picture, that actually is a criminal offense? We held a- Mm focus group with young boys as well to see, and over 80% of them didn't even know- Mm by sharing a picture online was actually, you know, illegal. Yeah, yeah. Do they know the consequences of what's- Mm this happens? Do they know what happens when the girl goes home, and the impact of self-harm and suicide and all of that- Mm I think plays a key part. So when you're asking about trends, I think there's, there's a high level of safeguarding. Mm-hmm. There's a high level of- Um, appearance as well through social media, what girls should- Mm-hmm look like and how they should present themselves. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that, that has a big influence. And it's interesting that you picked up on that because, you know, um, at Black Men for Change, we've always been interested in- You know, how the sector works organically or not, in some cases, and where there are opportunities for better collaboration. And do you think there is enough collaboration between sort of men or young men-focused organizations and women's organizations? Do, do you tend... Do, does, um... Could more be done in that space- 100% about collaboration? 100%. 100- 'Cause if you think about a whole systems approach, you know, separating women's and girls'- I'm in total agreement services from men's and young boys is appropriate for some things, but not necessarily for everything, right? Yeah. And where we know that young women and girls or women that come in actually want a space where it is, uh, gender specific- Mm trauma informed. Totally agree. Mm. But actually, how is society gonna change, similar to what you said, Jay, if we put a divide in? Mm. Like, why is the pressure and the burden always on the girls to say VAWG, uh, violence against women and girls is happening? Or why is it always- Mm in the women's sector? Mm. Why, why are we, and I'm saying this on a- Mm personal level, not a... why are we not opening the doors up to Black men for, um, change and saying that actually you come in- Mm and let's do a joint program together. Mm. Let's do some work together, 'cause this is a society problem. I mean- Mm even before the VAWG strategy came out, we identified that actually the girls, the focus groups that we were running with- Mm young girls were saying, "You're delivering these workshops in b- in schools- Mm for, for us young women and girls, but we're coming in and listening to your workshops about healthy relationships, consent- Mm but the boys are sitting in their classroom." Yeah, yeah. So when we're going back, they're not knowing about change. Mm. Exactly. They're not knowing about what you've just discussed, and that was a light bulb moment. Mm. I think for us as an organization, we were like, yeah, we're pulling these girls out the classroom- Mm to telling them about healthy- Yeah relationships. And it's not just the word healthy relationships, it's actually about understanding- Mm how can you be alongside boys without feeling like something might happen or something vice versa. Or the boys- Mm feeling like, "I better not say anything 'cause she's gonna think..." Mm-hmm. Um, so we brought those focus groups. We worked with Change Makers in Birmingham- Mm-hmm which is a youth, uh, center- Right where we created a animation short film- Mm with young men and boys, which, um- We showcased at the Houses of, um, sort of Commons and P- uh, Parliament last week, and we had such a positive response Right, okay 'Cause the language relates to the boys. Mm. Like, it's not a blame game. If we're gonna d- do- Mm-hmm a societal change, we need to bring everyone on board. Bella, um, that's been a really interesting conversation. Thank you. Uh, um, and thanks for your honesty around that. I wanna come back a bit more now onto some of the problems you see in the system, and to touch on what might be a difficult subject is this notion of who's in charge of that whole system, whether that be at government level or, you know, within charities, and whether you think There is space to talk about how racism manifests in systems, and this idea of, you know, some people call it white fragility, but, you know, do you think we should be having more honest conversations about race? I, I'm g- I'll put it like that. 100%. I mean, just by organizations, I think, in any organization, I think at Advance we're doing a lot of work around cultural competency, that understanding of different cultures. And I think, you know, it's really, really important to stress just by holding a EDI policy- Mm within your organization or having the right policy- Mm or having, you know, the Equalities Act to that, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. No. And I think that is... it's not okay to zi- po- point blankly just say within an organization it doesn't exist- Mm just because you've got the right sort of policies in place. We know it exists. You know, it exists, um, at all levels. Mm-hmm. You know, and you can see that through all institutions. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think it's, it's about having those open conversations. Mm. It's about saying, "Actually, what are we not getting?" Mm. You know? And I remember, um, you know, this is in sort of in my younger self as first working, you know, as a sales assistant. Yeah. And it was Eid- Yeah you know, as an example, when someone just said to me, "Oh, you know, Eid Mubarak," which is lovely. Mm. But I was like, "I don't celebrate it." And they're like, "Yeah, you do." Mm. It's that cultural awareness- Yeah you know, of understanding of different cultures. Mm. So I think- Does it manifest in your professional life now? Are you... Is there s- is there sort of a, a defensiveness sometimes or a let's not go there type conversation? I think, I think there's, um... I think does it exist? Is it visible? It can be. Mm. I mean, is it directly called out, or could you directly name it as that? No, you can't. Mm. I think, um, there's microaggressions- Mm you can see throughout your career. You know, there's, um, you know, that understanding of, um, actually something doesn't feel right when I'm in this room. Mm. Yeah, yeah. And to call it out. I mean- Only as a person of color you would know- Mm that when you walk into a room, um, you know, everyone will judge you by your first appearance- Mm. Yeah by your communication s- uh, skills. Mm-hmm. Does code switching among Black- Mm global majority still take place 100%? Mm. You know, you switch according to your environment. Mm-hmm. You have to prove yourself in your position. Mm. You know, that still exists no matter what career path or what level you are. Does that come from your current workplace? No, it can come from your background as well. Mm. Let's not shy away from that. You know, I came from a household where you get yourself a job, that's a tick box for you. Mm. Prove yourself. You'll get on, just do the job. Don't ring in sick. Don't- Mm-hmm talk about mental health. Don't talk about... You know, that all sort of displays. Mm. So I think, yeah, it's, uh, it's visible. And do you... And I, I used to do a lot of work in Hackney, and I, I'd be fortunate, privileged if you like, to be one of those voluntary sector people who was around those senior decision-making tables with heads of, you know, local authorities, heads of youth services, heads of adult social care, and so on. And I knew that the data was showing dispar- racial disparities. Uh, and I'd call it out and say, "Look, you know, this data's so obvious. When... We've got to look at race." And people were like, you could see them getting a bit bum shuffly or, "Oh, it's him again," eyes rolling. And you know, there was sometimes some real uncomfort from predominantly white folks, but it wasn't solely white people, but people who were in positions of power and influence just didn't wanna have the conversat- just didn't wanna accept that racism or race was a, a, a particular factor in, in poorer outcomes for certain groups. So do you, are, are you in those types of environments? Do you find yourself having to call people out or to name, not name and shame, but to actually, you know, inst- instigate an honest conversation? Does that still go on or do you think most people who have that influence are able to talk about these things without holding back? I think we're able to talk about them. Mm. I think we've become more... I think I'd say we definitely have become more confident- Mm and more outspoken in saying when something doesn't sit right. Mm. But does change happen from that? I don't. I don't know if we can- Mm I can honestly say it does. Mm-hmm. I think, um, and I was just, there was a government sort of assessment carried out on health equalities. Mm. It showed that, uh, it acknowledged that disparity, you know, that equalities was sort of taking place. And I think it's really, really important that actually We are saying it, but where is it landing? Mm. Where is the funding pot landing? Do we get the same platforms- Mm as a Black and, um, global majority sort of organization? Mm-hmm. So if you buy in for smaller ones, do they get the same pocket as someone, you know, coming with a different area of need? Yeah. You know, there's a lot of focus, I do feel, on other areas of needs where it's becomes, like, the upcoming thing. But actually- Mm-hmm is there focus on these group of individuals? Like, assumptions I think are made in f- sometimes- Mm among those that's i- at higher. Oh, we think we should fund this amount for this or this is. Yeah. But actually, ask the people on the ground or ask those smaller, those third sector organizations what are needed before you commission out services. Right. And I think it is happening, but with that, is it going into future delivery is the question. So I'm gonna ask you to dream a little bit, Dani, and I'm gonna say, you know, if you were top of the tree, right, in terms of, uh, HMPPS or, or commissioning, a commissioner, what would be the sort of ideal ecosystem to make sure that, you know, services were fair and responsive, safe for Black and global majority women particularly? You know, what would that service configuration look like? You've talked about whole systems approach, but give us a bit more of an idea of if you, you know, had your finger on the magic button, so to speak. I know that doesn't exist. We're being a little bit, you know, what do you call it, liberal with our imagination here. But give us, if you could design the services and you were in charge of it all, what would it look like? I'd do what I do in across our women's centers- Right which is you said and we did. Mm-hmm. Um- So be accountable to the- To do, yeah the young women And not just you said but we didn't do. Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, there's a massive need to look at local areas, deprived areas. Now remember, um, young women and girls, they'll face double barriers- Mm-hmm such as age, and then, you know, their sex, similar to those from global majority background, age, ethnicity. Mm-hmm. Like, those double barriers need to be recognized, and there needs to be- There needs to be an acknowledgement of we've listened- Mm-hmm and now we're acting. And I think we have come a- away in our funding. That there- Mm is small pockets out there, but actually is it reaching all the cohort that it should be reaching? Yeah. I think, no, not yet. Okay. Great. I mean, maybe we can get you back at a later stage to go into more detail. And I just wanna, um, we're coming to the end of the hour, but I'm really interested in, you know, you talked about some of the partners you've worked with, WHISGERS, um, SWIM. Um, organizations like Daddyless Daughters, you work with them. You know, who are some of the sort of shining lights out there who are, you know, maybe doing some really progressive things? Give us a flavor of, of what that looks like. Um, I think there is a lot of really, really good work. I'm on the advisory board for the Daddyless Daughters. Mm. Great work going on. Looking right to the root, the cause, going out into those areas- Mm-hmm and supporting those cohort of young women and girls. You've got Hibiscus working with, uh, um, sort of those that are migrant- Mm have no access to public funding. You have Asian Women's Resource Center, PAC SWIM do programs- Mm-hmm for those, uh, um, predominantly from, uh, Black heritage and background. We have a lot, and I remember, um, sort of in prisons as well, like, um, I think it's really important that those that we are supporting, we mirror that as well. So, um, you know, working in male estates such as before I left, you could see mentoring services coming in. Mm. But actually it was very small- Mm to the population. Now, we've can't shy away. The quarter of the population in prisons is that of in- individuals from Global Majority, Black and Global. Yeah. That's a large population. Mm. And, you know, the numbers are only going up, I think, from 10%. I'm just looking at the Pakistani- Mm sort of prison population. It's gone up to 18%. What support's in place for them? Mm. What support's in place if the numbers are going up, you know? Yeah. And why are they going up? Mm. Those are the questions, I think. You know, we know that those of color face, uh, custodial sentences- Mm more than those of non-color. So why is that happening? Mm. I think, I think to unpick that, you have to go right back- To your younger next generation Mm And that's what put me in this career pathway was- Yeah, yeah to support the younger, and then going up. And then you can still see it. Yeah. It's still happening. Um, you know, thinking ahead, what are the sort of conversations... We've got a new prime minister- Yeah new justice minister, Alex Norris. What are the sort of conversations we as Black and Global Majority folks need to be having that we're not? And what are the sorts of conversations that you think government needs to be having that it's not? I think us as professionals in senior leadership roles, we need to come together. Mm-hmm. I think we don't. Yeah. I think we keep saying we are, but we don't. Mm. So I think for us, there's a coalition, there's work that we can do. I think one voice is powerful, but a whole sort of heap of voices is, uh, just as powerful- Mm just more powerful. And actually saying that, and I think for the government to give us an opportunity to present something. Mm-hmm. You know, when I say something, I mean a concept, a innovation, a way forward, um, I think is really key. And I think- Mm we as people of color do have some of those inno- Mm those innovations, those ideas. We know what's missing on the ground. Yeah. We just haven't got the funding to do it. Mm. And I think, does that sit with us? Yeah, partly. Mm. I think we're not doing the whole let's stand by each another as well. Mm. Okay. And I think we're shying away from those conversations- Mm 'cause you've got, uh, you know, organizations working in sectors who come together to do a lot of- Mm uh, policy change and a lot of policy work. And I think if we wanna see change, we've gotta have a collective voice where we're saying- Mm change needs to happen. Interesting. And I think that you're doing amazing work by bringing this to the fore. Well, look, I mean, we're trying to shine a spotlight. Yeah. And you know, so long as we get to meet people like yourself, Dally, and, you know- Mm we create that honest space for honest dialogue, we sort of... We've touched on a lot of things today. And I, I, I'm really impressed by how you haven't held back. You know, you've, you've embraced that honesty and authenticity, and I think we, we've probably learnt a lot from what you've shared. So I'd like to, you know, thank you big style for, for being so direct with us. No, it's fine. Because you can really see how your career has shaped your thinking and, and- Mm you know, essentially made services for women and girls more specialized and more, more culturally appropriate. So, you know, long may that continue. I think just, just as we close, are there any things that you would wanna- Um, any advice that you would give colleagues, particularly about how you look after yourself? We didn't really touch on that, but, you know, you're dealing with traumatic stuff all day, every day, right? Um, so are there any sort of words of wisdom you would share to colleagues in the sector about how to take care of yourself when you're, you know, facing all these difficult scenarios? I think it's good to have, um, sort of support- Mm-hmm as well. Um, to have a, a good support network. I think that's key. Mm-hmm. I think that's key within... I'm lucky to be in an organization where there is a great support network, but I think also outside of work, having a great support network. And do you know what? I think one of the questions, and as a senior leader, I think in an organization, what brings me that, that spark back in- Mm is I go and sit and still wanna support frontline work. Yeah. I watch frontline work happening- Mm and just by someone feeding back or putting feedback, I think is where I get my spirit from- Right and where I look after myself when they say, "Actually, that's what I needed." Mm. I think that's key. And I'd say to- Yeah anyone in a sort of senior leader pos- si- position, go back to your first time- Mm in the sector and go and do that role for half a day. Mm-hmm. It makes so much difference. Good. Oh, that's great advice. And, um, shame I can't go and do that myself, but yeah. Yeah. Uh, you've inspired me to have a bit of a rethink about that. So yeah, don't leave the front line. No, don't. Because that's where you get the real evidence, and that's where you know that change is happening. I love the way you use the word spirit, because that's what keeps us going, right? Yeah. Thank you, darling. Brilliant. Thank you. What a great conversation. Hopefully, we'll have you back some point in the future. Yeah. But great. Thank you for having me, and great, yeah. Keep doing what you're doing. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Really enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
Well, I am so excited to bring you our first BGM Briefing podcast. And, um, we've been blessed by having the fantastic Darley Kaur who's a member of the Advance team, and she's a director of criminal justice in young women and girls services at Advance. Been there 15 years, I believe. Maybe, uh, is that right? Am I getting my numbers correct? Uh, at Advance three and a half, but- Oh, been in the sector in the sector, Hector. I do apologize. Sorry. Yeah, you- yeah. Um, so she is super experienced, and one of the reasons I was so keen to have Darley on this podcast was because at Black Men for Change, we're really interested in unearthing and, and bringing to the fore the issues facing women and girls particularly, uh, in the criminal justice system. So I think Darley is somebody who's gonna be really honest with us, um, and she's gonna share some, you know, uh, thoughts, challenges, value. You'll, we'll get a sense of her value base, so I'm really excited about this first conversation. I'm hoping you are too, Darley, and, um, let's get into it. So, um- Before, actually, before we start diving into questions about the professional side of life, right, we're all humans in this, uh, criminal justice ecosystem, and, uh, I'm just really interested in your background. Tell us a bit more about where you were born, who you are, if you've got family, and maybe a bit about your roots. I mean, just so for transparency, um, I was born in Lancaster, so I'm a Northerner. You might hear a little bit of a twinge in my accent. Uh, and my dad's Belizean, my mum's White English, so I'm a, I'm a sort of mixed heritage person, and I managed to get a couple of years, uh, as a small child living in Belize. So I had a sort of taste of what it was to live outside the sort of Eurocentric, um, way of life. But I think that set me up nicely for, uh, you know, the realities of living in Britain, certainly Britain as we know now with some of the rise of the far right. Being from Lancaster, we were one of two or three Black families, so you knew you were different, and you were told you were different, even though most of my mates, uh, you know, I loved them to bits, but yeah, you felt a little bit special. So anyway, enough about me. I'm really interested, who is Dali? Tell us more. So Dali is, uh, one of six siblings. Uh, a big, uh, family. Come from the Midlands originally, brought up in the Midlands. Mm-hmm. Um, Dad was a migrant, Mum was, came over to this country at the age of 12, grafted, worked, uh, in the mills all his life. Uh, hardworking. Um, memories are that of, um, you know, Dad just working all the hours- Mm-hmm uh, just to put a roof and food on the table. Traditional background, Mum stay at home, bring us up, all of those, but brought up in a S- a Sikh, brought up as a Sikh in a Sikh household with beliefs and cultures. Mm-hmm. Um, obviously with that comes, um- The, the perception of that boys are of higher hierarchy- Mm hold higher value, carry on- Mm-hmm the family name. Girls are more to working, as in passed on. Right. Uh, so that was always the way it was. Education was key, but we were never deprived of- Mm-hmm um, sort of anything that we needed or wanted. Um, went through school, uh, I won't say as, um, uh, as a highest performing or good girl. Uh, went- Mm through school, spent most of my time at the back of the classroom, just because stood out. Mm-hmm. Because moved into, uh, an area which was very, um, prominent in British, White English. Mm. Uh, suffered a lot of bullying at school. Right. Named as the curry girl. Remember sitting outside and just not mixing in. Mm. Having no friendship group, which is quite sad in the sense of, like, your siblings facing those similar challenges. Went on to secondary school, became louder, displayed it through other forms of behavior, as in, yeah, just reacting- Mm because now you found a group of friends that were alike, who looked similar in appearance. Yeah. Um, got... Did I get myself into trouble? No, not really. Did I attend lessons? No, not really. Mm. Came out with a good level of GCSEs. Um, went into college and got married at a very young age. Right. And that was the way the culture worked- Mm back then I still remember one scenario which still stays with me, which I think is important. Uh, a group of British white girls writing messages about a group of us Black and Asian girls- Mm on the school gates, and the headteacher deciding it was our fault and asking us to- Right scrub in front of the whole school- Wow after school. Mm. And that stayed with me throughout. Haunting. Yeah. Haunting, yeah. And that was only because we were a group that stood out because we were of Black- Mm and global majority, um, heritage, which is how it felt. I'm not saying which is how it was- Mm but how it felt. Uh, went on to work as an accounts manager. Went on, um, got married, had my first son at 20. Mm. And then, uh, went into, um, a household where it was very traditional. That marriage sort of came to an end, and then, uh, moved into London as a single parent- Right raising two boys. Yeah. And yeah. Well, look, I mean, thanks for being so open about your start in life. I mean, some pretty traumatic things there, and I, I could imagine that's shaped your view of the world. It's probably shaped the sort of work that you do, and I'm sure it probably- 100% helps you do your job better because you've been there and got the T-shirt, as they say. And unfortunately, we're now in 2026, and we still- Mm have some of the same issues facing- Mm girls at school. Yeah. Uh, you know, I don't believe in the word unconscious bias. Mm-hmm. Um, so for me- Well, why is that? Do you mind me asking? 'Cause I don't believe that there is such a thing as unconscious bias. You think it's all conscious? Yeah. And that's personal. Right. That's personal. I'm not saying that doesn't happen. Mm. But I think it's really important, um- To emphasize that we're in 2026- Mm and I'm a woman who's heading- Mm towards her 50s, and I'm still seeing similar- Mm behaviors in what is supposed to be safe school environments. Mm. And I think it's, the question then of why I'm in this sector is probably answered- Yeah through that. Yeah. And, you know, so you do a lot, lot of work around women and girls. In fact, it is your work. Um, how do you think then, you know, your own sort of life story has helped you become better at the work you do, do you think? And- I think- How relevant is it? I think it's really important despite what background you come from- Mm whether that's White British, Asian, Black Caribbean, Black African, Sikh, Bangladeshi. I think the category is so broad. Mm. And I think that is a key thing that I think is yet not being sort of brought to the forefront. Mm-hmm. That one... It's like one shoe doesn't fit all. Mm. And it's similar to that, that one service cannot do 100% of all the outcomes that are needed. Mm. And I think being a y- you know, my younger self and being through that journey, and then having two boys of that, of Asian heritage as well- Mm I think it's really important that all services, despite what background, give that, uh, level of wraparound support. Yeah. And there's a clear understanding of those that come from, you know, Black or global majority background. I think that's important. Mm-hmm. Have you seen the services evolve over the sort of... I mean, you said 15 years in the, i- in, in the sector, and four years was it at VANS? Yeah, yeah. So have, have... Are you seeing services evolve? I mean, there's- Or are they pretty similar to they always, what they always were? I think there's definitely a funding and a policy, um, awareness- Right around it I don't think the question is in, is it fair or unfair? I think the question is there's still inequalities- Mm taking place. So I think there could be a wider question of why is that still happening- Mm even though there's so much policy- Mm and there's so much, um, I wouldn't say so much, but there's investment when we're talking about support for Black or global majority backgrounds. Mm. I think, um, why do we ask ourselves, why are we still in the same position to say that inequality still exists? Yeah. And, you know, you talked about, um, services being really tailored for the individual, right? And, you know- Yeah the idea that one size fits all is, is so outdated, right? So give us a sense of the sorts of things that you think are very relevant for Asian girls, for instance, who are in touch with the criminal justice system. What would- Yeah. So I think- What do you know works, and what is to be avoided, perhaps? So I think when you're looking at, um, a whole systems approach- Mm-hmm I think that works. Mm-hmm. And I think it's really key and important that- organizations know that they can't do all the roles. And I think- Mm I'm fortunate to be in a charity that's made up of 30 partnerships. Yeah. Um, and I think I'm really fortunate that I've rema- and the reason why I've remained is because the organization recognizes that they're not a specialist in all areas. Mm-hmm. But I think what we see is we do not do a tick box exercise. Mm. And the services that I oversee are very based upon, led by what the young girl or what the woman is telling us. Mm. And I think that's the key. And the key is to say, actually, this is outside of our remit. Mm. We need to bring in specialist partners- Yeah into this, and we do that through organizations such as- Mm Hibiscus, um, Swim. Right. Working with sort of Black and global majority organizations. Hibiscus working with migrant organizations. Mm-hmm. Our women's centers provide that. Mm. When we're looking at our young women and girls, we've set up a safe space for girls to come. Mm-hmm. They can come in and just watch Netflix. Yeah. They can come in and actually have one-to-one. Mm. We've invited parents as well to show them that this isn't a place, 'cause still in 2026, those from Asian backgrounds, they're still not to mix boys with girls. Right. There's still that cultural- Mm-hmm shift that needs to happen- Mm around mixed spaces. And what we find from the girls that come into, um, our centers is they might make, you know, disclosures- Yeah of abuse going on within the household, and not being given the opportunities. Mm-hmm. Which, um, as an Asian woman, I'd say it's very set by cultural traditions and expectations. Mm-hmm. So it's about moving that narrative and moving that story, which I think we do really well in- Yeah sort of, you know, providing homework clubs- You know, tuition is offered to the son- Mm-hmm but won't be offered to the boy. Yeah. Uh, I mean, to the girl, as an example, because he's the one- Mm who should be holding that position. So we provide those services. We understand, like, even as an Asian, it's so broad. Yeah. You have your Pakistani, Bangladeshi- Mm-hmm Sikhs, Hindus, you know, a numerous number of individuals- Mm and young women and girls if, who are told to fit into one box. Mm. But actually, we're so different. Yeah. Similar to Black Afro-Caribbeans as a, and the Caribbeans, and, you know- Mm-hmm young girls from, you know, from different heritage. It looks very, very different. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's human nature to try and make things simple, but in actual fact, we live very complex- Yeah multifaceted lives, right? So, I mean, one of the things that I was really interested in was your sort of positivity towards, um, partnering with others. I mean, how does that work at Advanced? Do you- I mean, it's- Do, is it written down? Is it more about the relationships between you and maybe other people in the sector? Tell me a bit more about how those partnerships work, 'cause I, it's my view that the more we partner, the stronger we get. But tell me, tell me more about, you know, Swim, Hibiscus, um, you know, where those all lie there. Yeah. So I think it's important. So we look- Mm as an organization at what our data's showing. Yeah. Our demographics is showing that 53% of the women who come to access our services, especially through our criminal justice services- Mm-hmm and even those for our young women and girls, come from a Black or Global Majority background. You know, we can provide that safeguarding support- Mm that crisis intervention there and then. We can provide that level of need. But that specialist- Mm-hmm counseling services, we know those from Black and Global Majority funding needs to be looked at in that- Yeah 'cause counseling looks totally different. Mm. You know, what a young Asian girl or a Black girl's gonna come with is gonna be so different- Mm to what that might require for a British White- Mm girl. Not that those needs differ, 'cause the needs are all there. Yeah, yeah. But it's just that level of understanding that actually, to unpick what's going on, we really need someone who's got a real cultural or- You know, understanding of what that level of support is- Right which we can provide, and we do provide. But actually bringing in that extra layer always improve i- improves outcomes- Mm for that young woman and girls. But sometimes the funding just isn't there. And do you find that the, the funding process, when you're pitching for, you know, to expand a new service and you've, you wanna partner with one of the organizations you mentioned or another one, does that process allow for a partnership to really develop, do you think? Do you think the commissioning environment supports partnerships between particularly By and For organizations? I mean, there's a massive attempt. Mm. There's a massive focus on partnership and whole systems approach. Mm. But actually, do the smaller By and Fors have the right governance? Mm. Um, as in they, they have the governance, but do they have the funding to have big teams to do bid writing- Yeah, yeah to infrastructure, uh, to support with that process? I think- What I've seen in my own experience is funding's very national. Mm-hmm. And actually, it's short term, so you don't get the longer term outcomes that are needed. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, what you get is small interventions. Mm-hmm. Um, and where we've seen funding is long term, you know, you know that that reduces re-offending. Mm-hmm. That ensures that you're putting the woman or the young girl- Mm-hmm in a stable position. Mm-hmm. What some funding doesn't allow, where these short pockets of funding, is you're plastering. Yeah, yeah. You're putting a plaster- I mean, typically- to cover- how long are the sorts of relationships you would have with a young girl or- I mean, they vary. Um, in our CJS services, we're very lucky in London, we have additional funding coming from other streams- Mm-hmm where support can be longer term. So after- Mm women finish their probation or intervention, they can get longer term support. Yeah. But when you're looking at regions, it's very based on, um, what that intervention is. I mean, for young women and girls, we know better outcomes happen, 'cause trust- Mm um, is massive for young women and girls. They need to build trust with their mentor. Mm-hmm. And, and in order to date that, to do that, that takes a long period of time, a long period of, um, sort of building that up. And when trust does build- Mm the walls come down. Yeah. And actually, what is really going on surfaces. Mm-hmm. And that's what is a positive outcome. It's not just what's surfacing at the top- Mm-hmm it's actually going- Mm-hmm right to the core of what, how have you come to this service, I think, is key and important. And are you... I mean, I think when we had a bit of a, um, pre-chat before w- we kicked off with this podcast, you'd mentioned, I think, that you felt from your, sort of, view, vantage point, that, you know, there was an increase in violence against women and girls going on. And give, give, give our listeners a bit of a flavor of, as to what you can see at Advance, and what some of your partners can see about what's going on. We hear a lot in the news about the manosphere and, you know, the rise of misogyny and, you know, the links probably to some of the far right stuff that's going on. But beyond that particular specific set of issues, w- what's happening for women and girls at the moment? I think peer-on-peer pressure- Mm is massive Um, online abuse Mm-hmm So the bullying doesn't stop at the school gate. Mm-hmm. Going back 20 years in my time- Yeah you know, bullying would stop when the bell rings. Yeah. I think now it goes on. Mm. It can go throughout the night. What happens, that carries it way, its way home- Mm impacts the whole family network- Mm which can then result in mental health, substance misuse. Mm. And unfortunately We were looking at support for girls at 13 plus- Mm and 14 plus. Advance now support girls as young as nine. Wow. And how else are your services adapting to that, particularly the sort of 24-hour nature of our existence? Yeah. And I think it's about training. Mm. It's about ensuring the right training is in place for, um, you know, key workers who are doing that frontline- Mm-hmm um, delivery. It's ensuring that their wellbeing- Mm as well. Um, ensuring that, you know, you have the right support in place. But I think it's, again, it goes back to that, um, wraparound support, liaising with schools- Mm and actually are the schools aware that this is taking place, and holding them accountable. You know- Mm is, schools are supposed to be a safe, nurturing place. Mm. You know, if this is going on, are they aware? And I think we've unfortunately seen through some of our services that sexual offenses- Mm are, you know, make up a third of our referrals. Really? Okay. And that includes rape- Mm as young as 13. You know, and I think it, it's really important that without, with our young women and girls as well, it's awareness building- Yeah around grooming, criminal exploitation, uh, county lines. Mm. All of those were sort of labeled as a boy thing, a young men- Yeah, yeah and boys. I mean, my background has been working in male estates and prisons- Mm such as Belmarsh, Brixton, and Isis- Mm with young offenders as well. So those behaviors that were well known to sort of surface in young men and boys- Mm are now, you know, happening in that- Yeah in the criminal exploitation, gangs, grooming, all of that is taking place. And I think it's about, it's not a blame game. Mm. And I think at A- Advance, um, we held an event in the Houses of Commons last week- Mm where we wanted to say, like, it's about this is a society-wide problem. Yeah. Actually, the boys that we're saying that are causing this, do they know what consent is? Mm. You know, do they know by sharing a nude picture, that actually is a criminal offense? We held a- Mm focus group with young boys as well to see, and over 80% of them didn't even know- Mm by sharing a picture online was actually, you know, illegal. Yeah, yeah. Do they know the consequences of what's- Mm this happens? Do they know what happens when the girl goes home, and the impact of self-harm and suicide and all of that- Mm I think plays a key part. So when you're asking about trends, I think there's, there's a high level of safeguarding. Mm-hmm. There's a high level of- Um, appearance as well through social media, what girls should- Mm-hmm look like and how they should present themselves. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that, that has a big influence. And it's interesting that you picked up on that because, you know, um, at Black Men for Change, we've always been interested in- You know, how the sector works organically or not, in some cases, and where there are opportunities for better collaboration. And do you think there is enough collaboration between sort of men or young men-focused organizations and women's organizations? Do, do you tend... Do, does, um... Could more be done in that space- 100% about collaboration? 100%. 100- 'Cause if you think about a whole systems approach, you know, separating women's and girls'- I'm in total agreement services from men's and young boys is appropriate for some things, but not necessarily for everything, right? Yeah. And where we know that young women and girls or women that come in actually want a space where it is, uh, gender specific- Mm trauma informed. Totally agree. Mm. But actually, how is society gonna change, similar to what you said, Jay, if we put a divide in? Mm. Like, why is the pressure and the burden always on the girls to say VAWG, uh, violence against women and girls is happening? Or why is it always- Mm in the women's sector? Mm. Why, why are we, and I'm saying this on a- Mm personal level, not a... why are we not opening the doors up to Black men for, um, change and saying that actually you come in- Mm and let's do a joint program together. Mm. Let's do some work together, 'cause this is a society problem. I mean- Mm even before the VAWG strategy came out, we identified that actually the girls, the focus groups that we were running with- Mm young girls were saying, "You're delivering these workshops in b- in schools- Mm for, for us young women and girls, but we're coming in and listening to your workshops about healthy relationships, consent- Mm but the boys are sitting in their classroom." Yeah, yeah. So when we're going back, they're not knowing about change. Mm. Exactly. They're not knowing about what you've just discussed, and that was a light bulb moment. Mm. I think for us as an organization, we were like, yeah, we're pulling these girls out the classroom- Mm to telling them about healthy- Yeah relationships. And it's not just the word healthy relationships, it's actually about understanding- Mm how can you be alongside boys without feeling like something might happen or something vice versa. Or the boys- Mm feeling like, "I better not say anything 'cause she's gonna think..." Mm-hmm. Um, so we brought those focus groups. We worked with Change Makers in Birmingham- Mm-hmm which is a youth, uh, center- Right where we created a animation short film- Mm with young men and boys, which, um- We showcased at the Houses of, um, sort of Commons and P- uh, Parliament last week, and we had such a positive response Right, okay 'Cause the language relates to the boys. Mm. Like, it's not a blame game. If we're gonna d- do- Mm-hmm a societal change, we need to bring everyone on board. Bella, um, that's been a really interesting conversation. Thank you. Uh, um, and thanks for your honesty around that. I wanna come back a bit more now onto some of the problems you see in the system, and to touch on what might be a difficult subject is this notion of who's in charge of that whole system, whether that be at government level or, you know, within charities, and whether you think There is space to talk about how racism manifests in systems, and this idea of, you know, some people call it white fragility, but, you know, do you think we should be having more honest conversations about race? I, I'm g- I'll put it like that. 100%. I mean, just by organizations, I think, in any organization, I think at Advance we're doing a lot of work around cultural competency, that understanding of different cultures. And I think, you know, it's really, really important to stress just by holding a EDI policy- Mm within your organization or having the right policy- Mm or having, you know, the Equalities Act to that, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. No. And I think that is... it's not okay to zi- po- point blankly just say within an organization it doesn't exist- Mm just because you've got the right sort of policies in place. We know it exists. You know, it exists, um, at all levels. Mm-hmm. You know, and you can see that through all institutions. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think it's, it's about having those open conversations. Mm. It's about saying, "Actually, what are we not getting?" Mm. You know? And I remember, um, you know, this is in sort of in my younger self as first working, you know, as a sales assistant. Yeah. And it was Eid- Yeah you know, as an example, when someone just said to me, "Oh, you know, Eid Mubarak," which is lovely. Mm. But I was like, "I don't celebrate it." And they're like, "Yeah, you do." Mm. It's that cultural awareness- Yeah you know, of understanding of different cultures. Mm. So I think- Does it manifest in your professional life now? Are you... Is there s- is there sort of a, a defensiveness sometimes or a let's not go there type conversation? I think, I think there's, um... I think does it exist? Is it visible? It can be. Mm. I mean, is it directly called out, or could you directly name it as that? No, you can't. Mm. I think, um, there's microaggressions- Mm you can see throughout your career. You know, there's, um, you know, that understanding of, um, actually something doesn't feel right when I'm in this room. Mm. Yeah, yeah. And to call it out. I mean- Only as a person of color you would know- Mm that when you walk into a room, um, you know, everyone will judge you by your first appearance- Mm. Yeah by your communication s- uh, skills. Mm-hmm. Does code switching among Black- Mm global majority still take place 100%? Mm. You know, you switch according to your environment. Mm-hmm. You have to prove yourself in your position. Mm. You know, that still exists no matter what career path or what level you are. Does that come from your current workplace? No, it can come from your background as well. Mm. Let's not shy away from that. You know, I came from a household where you get yourself a job, that's a tick box for you. Mm. Prove yourself. You'll get on, just do the job. Don't ring in sick. Don't- Mm-hmm talk about mental health. Don't talk about... You know, that all sort of displays. Mm. So I think, yeah, it's, uh, it's visible. And do you... And I, I used to do a lot of work in Hackney, and I, I'd be fortunate, privileged if you like, to be one of those voluntary sector people who was around those senior decision-making tables with heads of, you know, local authorities, heads of youth services, heads of adult social care, and so on. And I knew that the data was showing dispar- racial disparities. Uh, and I'd call it out and say, "Look, you know, this data's so obvious. When... We've got to look at race." And people were like, you could see them getting a bit bum shuffly or, "Oh, it's him again," eyes rolling. And you know, there was sometimes some real uncomfort from predominantly white folks, but it wasn't solely white people, but people who were in positions of power and influence just didn't wanna have the conversat- just didn't wanna accept that racism or race was a, a, a particular factor in, in poorer outcomes for certain groups. So do you, are, are you in those types of environments? Do you find yourself having to call people out or to name, not name and shame, but to actually, you know, inst- instigate an honest conversation? Does that still go on or do you think most people who have that influence are able to talk about these things without holding back? I think we're able to talk about them. Mm. I think we've become more... I think I'd say we definitely have become more confident- Mm and more outspoken in saying when something doesn't sit right. Mm. But does change happen from that? I don't. I don't know if we can- Mm I can honestly say it does. Mm-hmm. I think, um, and I was just, there was a government sort of assessment carried out on health equalities. Mm. It showed that, uh, it acknowledged that disparity, you know, that equalities was sort of taking place. And I think it's really, really important that actually We are saying it, but where is it landing? Mm. Where is the funding pot landing? Do we get the same platforms- Mm as a Black and, um, global majority sort of organization? Mm-hmm. So if you buy in for smaller ones, do they get the same pocket as someone, you know, coming with a different area of need? Yeah. You know, there's a lot of focus, I do feel, on other areas of needs where it's becomes, like, the upcoming thing. But actually- Mm-hmm is there focus on these group of individuals? Like, assumptions I think are made in f- sometimes- Mm among those that's i- at higher. Oh, we think we should fund this amount for this or this is. Yeah. But actually, ask the people on the ground or ask those smaller, those third sector organizations what are needed before you commission out services. Right. And I think it is happening, but with that, is it going into future delivery is the question. So I'm gonna ask you to dream a little bit, Dani, and I'm gonna say, you know, if you were top of the tree, right, in terms of, uh, HMPPS or, or commissioning, a commissioner, what would be the sort of ideal ecosystem to make sure that, you know, services were fair and responsive, safe for Black and global majority women particularly? You know, what would that service configuration look like? You've talked about whole systems approach, but give us a bit more of an idea of if you, you know, had your finger on the magic button, so to speak. I know that doesn't exist. We're being a little bit, you know, what do you call it, liberal with our imagination here. But give us, if you could design the services and you were in charge of it all, what would it look like? I'd do what I do in across our women's centers- Right which is you said and we did. Mm-hmm. Um- So be accountable to the- To do, yeah the young women And not just you said but we didn't do. Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, there's a massive need to look at local areas, deprived areas. Now remember, um, young women and girls, they'll face double barriers- Mm-hmm such as age, and then, you know, their sex, similar to those from global majority background, age, ethnicity. Mm-hmm. Like, those double barriers need to be recognized, and there needs to be- There needs to be an acknowledgement of we've listened- Mm-hmm and now we're acting. And I think we have come a- away in our funding. That there- Mm is small pockets out there, but actually is it reaching all the cohort that it should be reaching? Yeah. I think, no, not yet. Okay. Great. I mean, maybe we can get you back at a later stage to go into more detail. And I just wanna, um, we're coming to the end of the hour, but I'm really interested in, you know, you talked about some of the partners you've worked with, WHISGERS, um, SWIM. Um, organizations like Daddyless Daughters, you work with them. You know, who are some of the sort of shining lights out there who are, you know, maybe doing some really progressive things? Give us a flavor of, of what that looks like. Um, I think there is a lot of really, really good work. I'm on the advisory board for the Daddyless Daughters. Mm. Great work going on. Looking right to the root, the cause, going out into those areas- Mm-hmm and supporting those cohort of young women and girls. You've got Hibiscus working with, uh, um, sort of those that are migrant- Mm have no access to public funding. You have Asian Women's Resource Center, PAC SWIM do programs- Mm-hmm for those, uh, um, predominantly from, uh, Black heritage and background. We have a lot, and I remember, um, sort of in prisons as well, like, um, I think it's really important that those that we are supporting, we mirror that as well. So, um, you know, working in male estates such as before I left, you could see mentoring services coming in. Mm. But actually it was very small- Mm to the population. Now, we've can't shy away. The quarter of the population in prisons is that of in- individuals from Global Majority, Black and Global. Yeah. That's a large population. Mm. And, you know, the numbers are only going up, I think, from 10%. I'm just looking at the Pakistani- Mm sort of prison population. It's gone up to 18%. What support's in place for them? Mm. What support's in place if the numbers are going up, you know? Yeah. And why are they going up? Mm. Those are the questions, I think. You know, we know that those of color face, uh, custodial sentences- Mm more than those of non-color. So why is that happening? Mm. I think, I think to unpick that, you have to go right back- To your younger next generation Mm And that's what put me in this career pathway was- Yeah, yeah to support the younger, and then going up. And then you can still see it. Yeah. It's still happening. Um, you know, thinking ahead, what are the sort of conversations... We've got a new prime minister- Yeah new justice minister, Alex Norris. What are the sort of conversations we as Black and Global Majority folks need to be having that we're not? And what are the sorts of conversations that you think government needs to be having that it's not? I think us as professionals in senior leadership roles, we need to come together. Mm-hmm. I think we don't. Yeah. I think we keep saying we are, but we don't. Mm. So I think for us, there's a coalition, there's work that we can do. I think one voice is powerful, but a whole sort of heap of voices is, uh, just as powerful- Mm just more powerful. And actually saying that, and I think for the government to give us an opportunity to present something. Mm-hmm. You know, when I say something, I mean a concept, a innovation, a way forward, um, I think is really key. And I think- Mm we as people of color do have some of those inno- Mm those innovations, those ideas. We know what's missing on the ground. Yeah. We just haven't got the funding to do it. Mm. And I think, does that sit with us? Yeah, partly. Mm. I think we're not doing the whole let's stand by each another as well. Mm. Okay. And I think we're shying away from those conversations- Mm 'cause you've got, uh, you know, organizations working in sectors who come together to do a lot of- Mm uh, policy change and a lot of policy work. And I think if we wanna see change, we've gotta have a collective voice where we're saying- Mm change needs to happen. Interesting. And I think that you're doing amazing work by bringing this to the fore. Well, look, I mean, we're trying to shine a spotlight. Yeah. And you know, so long as we get to meet people like yourself, Dally, and, you know- Mm we create that honest space for honest dialogue, we sort of... We've touched on a lot of things today. And I, I, I'm really impressed by how you haven't held back. You know, you've, you've embraced that honesty and authenticity, and I think we, we've probably learnt a lot from what you've shared. So I'd like to, you know, thank you big style for, for being so direct with us. No, it's fine. Because you can really see how your career has shaped your thinking and, and- Mm you know, essentially made services for women and girls more specialized and more, more culturally appropriate. So, you know, long may that continue. I think just, just as we close, are there any things that you would wanna- Um, any advice that you would give colleagues, particularly about how you look after yourself? We didn't really touch on that, but, you know, you're dealing with traumatic stuff all day, every day, right? Um, so are there any sort of words of wisdom you would share to colleagues in the sector about how to take care of yourself when you're, you know, facing all these difficult scenarios? I think it's good to have, um, sort of support- Mm-hmm as well. Um, to have a, a good support network. I think that's key. Mm-hmm. I think that's key within... I'm lucky to be in an organization where there is a great support network, but I think also outside of work, having a great support network. And do you know what? I think one of the questions, and as a senior leader, I think in an organization, what brings me that, that spark back in- Mm is I go and sit and still wanna support frontline work. Yeah. I watch frontline work happening- Mm and just by someone feeding back or putting feedback, I think is where I get my spirit from- Right and where I look after myself when they say, "Actually, that's what I needed." Mm. I think that's key. And I'd say to- Yeah anyone in a sort of senior leader pos- si- position, go back to your first time- Mm in the sector and go and do that role for half a day. Mm-hmm. It makes so much difference. Good. Oh, that's great advice. And, um, shame I can't go and do that myself, but yeah. Yeah. Uh, you've inspired me to have a bit of a rethink about that. So yeah, don't leave the front line. No, don't. Because that's where you get the real evidence, and that's where you know that change is happening. I love the way you use the word spirit, because that's what keeps us going, right? Yeah. Thank you, darling. Brilliant. Thank you. What a great conversation. Hopefully, we'll have you back some point in the future. Yeah. But great. Thank you for having me, and great, yeah. Keep doing what you're doing. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Really enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.