Inside a £5 Million Fund: Ugo Ikokwu on What It Takes to Back Systems Change

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Welcome to the BGM Briefing podcast. It's the first in a series of conversations with a whole range of people, those individuals that are doing great work in our communities, particularly in the criminal justice sector, but also those individuals who are funding them. This is a shadowy group we don't hear about, uh, too often, but we feel their impact through the money they give out. So we're talking about funders, and we're talking about philanthropy experts. So we're gonna talk to a lot of those, and we're gonna have all of those podcasts on our micro site so you can go and find out about them and use that information to drive your applications or support and advise others. The first individual that, um, I wanna talk to is a really interesting brother. His name is Ugo Ikoku. And not only is a funder responsible for millions, he's also somebody who's thinking very progressively about this sector. So before we get into it, I just want to acknowledge the Network for Social Change, which is one of our key funders, and we really appreciate the support that they've given us because we wouldn't have been able to deliver these really important podcasts for our communities without them. So, thank you. Ugo Ikoku. Nice. Well- I landed it. You landed. Well mad. Thank you for agreeing to be the first of our interviewees- My pleasure and more specifically our funders on BGM podcast. Very grateful. Very excited to have you, um, not least because you are a real warrior. And I asked you before we started if there was anything you'd prefer I didn't touch on, you said, "No, come with whatever you want." Yes. To be respected and honored. So I really appreciate that. Thank you. And, um, it is the first of a series of podcasts. It's really important to the criminal justice sector, which, uh, especially for the Black and Global Majority communities because they're not heard. Mm. Uh, and so we're really, really humbled, um, that, uh, you as a funder, as a philanthropist and others, because there are others of your colleagues that have agreed to come on board of, uh, deemed to honor us with your time and your presence because I know you're busy people. Also want to recognize our funders, uh, Spark to Life And these are community organizations. You know, resources are tight. They fundraise and so on, but they recognize the importance of something like this that surfaces, you know, really critical information around money. And our sub-theme for this is Follow the Money. Yeah. Um, and, and we know that's a big issue for you. Yeah. Big theme, big preoccupation in economics. Coffee of Freak, another really powerful organization that's doing, um, really profound work in our communities at the moment. And one of the things I like about Coffee of Freak is its emphasis on community hubs. Mm-hmm. And when we go into those hubs, you see d- real intergenerational interaction, laughter, eating, argument, all taking place in these hubs. And they make sure that in terms of their governance, elders are playing a critical part. Yeah. They have their, you know, the w- women's governance structure and the young people and so on. Powerful. And the other organization is SWIM- Mm-hmm that provides mental health support for men, and originated in Hackney, uh- It's Peter- which is where we are for this podcast. Peter Merriman is in the UK. Peter, Peter Merrifield. Merrifield, that's it, yeah. Yeah. Peter, you get a name, you get a name check. Cool. So again, real leadership organizations, and when I said to them, "Look, this is something we wanna do, you know, contribute to it with us," they didn't want any explanation. They just said yes. So, you know, we're making sure that they're honored, and we will honor them in the, uh, um, BGM briefing that comes out on October 12th. So that's enough promotional endorsement and recognition towards our sponsors. I think what I wanna start by doing is just, uh, you know, as we do in all, uh, appropriate podcasts, to set a little bit of your backstory out- Yeah um, for, for reference. Uh, so you've been with, um, The Trust For London since 2020. That's right. Six years. See how far I get on the back of- Yeah, yeah my social media search, right? Um, leading the Racial Justice Fund. Yep. Which a £5 million- 5 million. It's a pooled fund. Um- pooled fund, City Bridge. City Bridge, Lloyds- Lloyds Bank. Yep, that's correct. All right. Let me go a little deeper. You've spent 2 million so far. Well, not spent, distributed 2 million so far with- Probably more than that, actually. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, 13 or so organizations. Y- m- m- well, the portfolio has grown a lot bigger. Mm. I would probably say we're up to about 20 plus organizations- Great now in the portfolio. So maybe 2.5 million still to distribute? Uh, there's still a considerable amount of money. Mm. And just to add some context to that, so although the fund itself is 5 million- Mm it's actually part of our long-term strategy. Ah. So our strategy runs up until 2030. Wow. Um, so in a way, there is no, there is no set window. Yeah. Um- No urgency it will run, or urgency. Mm. It will run from now till the end, you know. So it's part of our broader strategy. But the fund itself was initially, uh, set up as- Mm a pooled fund between City Bridge, Trust for London, and then Lloyds recently joined the partnership last year. So yeah. Okay. It's I'm gonna come back to that pooled fund approach actually- Yeah 'cause it's, it's a bit of a mystery to me. We all see it, but we don't really necessarily understand the rationale for it. Um, before that you were program director for the For Trust. That's correct, yes. I've not heard of them before. Um, they're an interesting organization. Mm. Um, I would probably class them as a, a sort of intermediary. Oh. Um, and they basically provide, um, grants, um, unrestricted grants, uh, to small charities to help them unlock transformational impact. Wow. Help them basically grow their income. Um, they raise money basically- Mm on behalf of charities, um, social enterprises. Um, they're quite agnostic in terms- Mm of their reach. Um, and, uh, reach, they work across the UK internationally as well. Um, a lot of their, um, donors are, you know, private organizations, private banks, um, big, um, commercial firms, you know- Mm private firms, the likes of BlackRock. Yeah. Um, et cetera, et cetera. Um, yeah, so that was a really interesting organization and really interesting model- Mm that they have, um- Yeah to their work. Yeah. We like unrestricted. We like that. Yeah. And then recently you were appointed to the National Lottery Community Fund. Yes. A body that handed out nearly £1 billion. It's really 790 million, but the billion sounds better. It's the hustler in me. Nearly a billion last year, and 4.5 billion over the last decade. Yeah. I mean, I, I haven't got to grips with the numbers yet. Mm. But, um, yeah, obviously a- Which is the overall organization- Yeah obviously. Yeah. Um- You're plugged into a lot of money Yeah, to some extent. Um, uh, I mean, it's interesting. Oftentimes we talk about power, we talk about privilege. Mm. And I think one thing I've recognized over the last six years is that, you know, I've been fortunate enough now to occupy spaces where I do have a degree of power. I do have a degree of, of privilege. Um, obviously when you're sitting making funding decisions, although I don't necessarily have the ultimate, um, you know, decision over who gets funded, but I sit in those spaces. I'm part of those conversations. I understand The challenges that those organizations have when they're making decisions. But equally, because I also operate, you know, at the, the community level- Mm I also understand the challenges that the communities face. Yeah. And I can bring that perspective to bear within those institutions, within those bodies- Mm within those, you know, rooms where those decisions about ultimately who, you know, who gets funded and who doesn't. Mm. Like, who holds power, um, where those decisions are being made. And I think that's a really, again, we'll come back to, but as you were talking, I'm thinking, in my head I was thinking, "Yeah, you're an influencer." You're not, you're not... Hey, Ugo. You- I'm trying to be humble. Yeah. Brother. I'm trying to be humble. When your name comes up- it, it, it, it comes up with respect. And in fact, all of the- That's, that's very kind of you all of the philanthropists that we've- we're gonna have on the podcast going forwards are individuals that, you know, command a lot of respect in this space. And, uh, especially, um, uh, um, those who come from, you know, Black heritage. Yeah. You know, there's, there's, there's... It's opportunities, privilege, and, and greater responsibility. Yeah. And, and so if you're able to be in those spaces, not experience imposter syndrome- Yeah. Yeah for want of a better description, and be able to influence and progress in those spaces, then that's, that's to be respected. Yeah. And, and I think for me it's important to say I, I recognize that I'm not in those spaces to make up numbers. Mm. I'm not in those spaces because, you know, uh, there's a need for representation. Um- I'm laughing because of the word- I'm in those spaces... Yes I'm hearing wallflower. Yeah. He's not a wallflower. No, no. I, I'm in those spaces because I deserve to be. Yes. Uh- Because I've got the expertise, I've got the experience. Yes. I've spent my time, my years designing programs. I've spent my years listening to communities, understanding what works, what- Mm what doesn't work. Um, so I bring a huge amount of, um, not just lived, 'cause I think there is a tendency to relegate, you know, Black communities and communities of color to just lived experience. Mm. But actually lived expertise- Mm is, um, something I'm understanding, um- In terms of framing that we, we should sort of be, you know, be moving more towards. I, I bring a lot of that to bear- Yes um, you know, within those, those spaces. So I'm definitely not there, um, you know, because there are figures to be made up, um- Yeah And I think sometimes that r- that is, it can come across as an insult to, you know, Black communities because we have, and I see this play out even within my work- Mm um, uh, oftentimes where, you know, there are particular things that we want to do. L- I'll use research as an example, you know. And then there is this underlying assumption that you can't get Black researchers. Mm. You know, you can't get Black policy experts, but actually that's not true. Mm. There's a lot of expertise, technical expertise that exists within our communities. I mean, through my work, I've been fortunate enough to engage with educators, researchers, like, um, architects, like these are real subject matter experts, you know- Mm financial experts, um, people who are extremely educated, extremely literate, um, you know, have a lot of historical knowledge, insight. Um, and so I think it's so important, um, and I'm, you know, trying to do more of that through my work to really bring, um, and to highlight, you know, those people, um, and bring them to, to the surface, to the fore, if you like. Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful work. So- And as you're talking and lots of things are going on, I'm thinking I'm gonna hold on and wait till I get into the, the, the body of the, the conversation. You also, uh, are a trustee of the Barrett Foundation. Yeah, Barrett Redrow. Yeah. Okay. Uh, treasurer and trustee for London Funders. Yes, which is now Funders Together. Okay. Um, yeah Chair of the Alpha Grove Community Center Exactly. So this is where I bring- Mm-hmm that direct community experience. Um, it's a small community center on the Isle of Dogs in Tower Hamlets, which is not too far from- Wow where we are actually. Um- I, I, I spent, uh, three years when I was a child living in Isle of Dogs- Really? when you shouldn't be there. Oh, my days. 19- When it was just docks and water s- 19, uh, so I spent 1976, which was- Wow the heatwave summer that they referenced this year when- Wow in comparison to this one. Uh, about two years I spent there. Uh, on a Saturday when, uh, West Ham and Millwall were playing and Millwall was playing at home, I had to stay at home. Wow. I had to stay at home. Oh, wow. So it's just, it's interesting you should say that. Um, uh, it's thrown me off a bit actually, just, just you mentioning that whole space. And it kinda taps into some of the, you know, what we're hearing and seeing now, that whole period, but we're not gonna go into that. Mm. I want to stick with the community part. Yeah. We're sitting in a community hub now. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, uh, Theodore Ambrose, uh, Medianet is, uh, hosting, and indeed also subsidizing the podcast. Wow. He's got his studios up in Tottenham Hale. Okay. All designer. Yeah. And we could've been up there, but we wanted to be in a community hub- Mm in the community, in Hackney, in the old Hackney Library where- Mm I studied as a child at 12 years of age. We won't say how long ago that was. Opposite Hackney L- um, Hackney Town Hall. Yeah. It's now Rising Tide. Mm. A music hub, which is led by Jermain Jackman. Jermain, yeah. First Black man to win The Voice. Yeah. Or was he the first winner of The Voice? One of the two. Uh, he'll kick me for not getting it right, so I'll, I'll hedge my bet and put both of those in there. And it's really important for the, the young people that are using these spaces to see successful individuals like you- Yeah coming in and out and bumping into them, and having their space being used, you know, to share information and knowledge that creates, um, uh, um, economic security and stability within their communities. So I just wanted to get a little plug in there for Rising Tide, and I'm on the board. So- Okay it's that parallel that we're talking about, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't know if you worry about it as well, but i- it's easy, when we're moving in these corridors, whether it be in the UK or internationally, it's, it's easy to drift away from the actual community. Mm. And in your head still think you're in the community- Mm because you're reading reports. Yep. You have, you know all the statistics. You got f- family members and so on, but really you're, you're not connected anymore. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that's an interesting point because, and I think for me, one of the things I am very intentional about is ensuring that I stay connected- Mm um, to the grassroots, to the very community. So even in the line of my work, you will always find me out there. Um- Mm whether that's down in Brixton Market or that's down- Mm in Peckham or here in Hackney, you know, I want to know what's happening. Yes. I want to meet the people who are actually delivering the work, 'cause I think when you're, when you're on the ground, you're listening, you're understanding. And for me, this is where you find the experts. Yes. And I know we'll talk a bit about the Racial Economic- Yeah Justice Fund. Yeah. But it was so interesting that just even in the design of the fund itself, um, for me, I was really, really intentional about who gets heard, who gets- Mm-hmm listened to. Um, because when we talk about community, I think- Um, there's a real lack of understanding as to, you know, who is- Mm who is community? Like- Yeah what does that mean? Like, who does that represent? Um, yeah. And it's easy to turn it into an intellectual exercise- Absolutely, yeah rather than feeling community. Yeah. Then the last thing I've got here is that you sit on the advisory board of Interconnected. I, I do. Um, re- it's actually set up for a really, by a really good friend of mine, um, Kathy. Um, and it's an organization that works across the sort of climate justice space. Oh, okay. Um- Wow. Really important. Yes. Um, I've, yeah, I've been sort of involved for the last- Oh couple of years. Um, yeah. And it's, it's a, a big issue for our communities, and it's I think one of the few a- it's one of many areas that we just don't seem to engage with. No. I, I don't know whether again, it's because of, and we'll talk about systems, we'll talk about structures, and the way systems are designed, the way language also is designed in that in- intentionally I think locks specific communities out, um, and stops them from engaging. So when you look at the whole climate justice movement, it's very white-led. Mm. But actually- That's right when you really look at, you know, who gets impacted the most by climate, you know, justice and injustice, it's Black, minoritized- Yeah communities. When y- I mean, London is a really classic example. When you go to certain areas where there is really high levels of pollution- Pollution you look at the demographic of that community- Yeah like the concentration, it's Black communities. Yeah. You look at issues like overcrowding in housing. Yeah. Who is, who are, who is impacted the most by these issues? Mm. Um, so in a way we are recipients, but we're not, um, we don't get to decide, you know, how that system or, or who gets listened to- Yeah um, w- within that system. Um, so yeah, climate and racial justice is quite an interesting- Very intersection. Yeah. Um, that I don't think... I know there are some funders out there that are do- doing interesting work. There are some organizations doing interesting work- Mm around that, but you're right, I don't think we're talking enough- No about, you look at globally, um, I mean, I'm just talking about the UK, but from a global context, you know, um, you, you think about, um, um, deforestation, um, reducing our carbon foot- like which countries are impacted the most, you know- Mm-hmm by climate, um, injustice. Um, so yeah. Yeah. It, that's a whole sort of different- Yeah subject area. Um. And it, it all intersects when we talk about- It does migration- Yeah and, uh- It's, it's, it's, uh, it's powerful. So You, you, you, it started depressing me. Is it? I've just caught myself getting a little down about it because you, you, you start to look into that- Mm-hmm whole area and how it's playing out across the board and connecting back with AI and, and so on, and data centers and the whole... It's the fact that we're not engaged, as engaged as we, we need to be- Yeah you know, is a, is a, is a constant source of frustration for me. But look, that, that was a quick trot through, relatively quick trot through your profile. I don't think you have much time for hobbies, but I'm sure you have. Oh, I do have. I could bet that you do. Yeah, yeah, I do. So tell me a little bit about, you know, the man behind the profile or the boy behind the profile. Where did your parents come from, and, you know, where did you grow up? Um, I mean, so it, you know, interestingly, I always, um, I, I never describe myself through a particular role. Mm. Rather, but the different, um, roles that I play. So I'm a husband. Mm. I'm a father. I'm a brother. I'm an uncle. Mm. Um, I, I'm a dad. Did I say that? I'm a dad. Mm. And that allows me to move between all of these different spaces because I bring all of those experiences and all the, all of those different roles that I play to bear within my sort of professional roles as well. Um, I grew up in London. Mm. Um, East London. So I talked about Isle of Dogs. Um, and so actually coming back to Alpha Grove was quite a full circle moment for me- Mm because, um, I used to attend the community center. Um, and it was, uh, you know, an incredible outlet for a lot of young people at the time. Um, obviously we've seen, um, the closure of so many of those, those spaces. Yeah. Um, I grew up very much in East London. I went to school in East London. Um- I mean, it's, it's interesting at the time I, I grew up, um, I'm seeing a lot of the experiences I had then in a way play out now. Um, I grew up at a time of, um, political uncertainty. Um, it wasn't too far away from, you know, we talked earlier on when we're sort of just sort of walking through history, things like the, um, the winter, um, fuel crisis- Mm um, the coal miners strike. Although that was in other parts of London, but you know, it had, you know, consequences, you know, across wider UK. Um, a time of deep, um, racism. Mm. Um, and it's interesting we're seeing a lot of that play out now. Um, I spent a lot of my time working through the community. Um, I'm originally, um, from Nigeria. My parents are Nigerian. Um, my dad is a lawyer. Um, and, and I think that's where my passion, you know, for social justice- Mm sort of came up. Um, I'll never forget one particular experience I had. I traveled back to Nigeria, um, after not being back for some time, and I remember I was sat in the car, um, and we were driving. Um, and I mean, you, you probably find, I don't know what it's like in other maybe African or Asian countries, but where, you know, we have similar culture experiences. Um, there was a, a, a sort of a young guy who was carrying, um, uh, like a bowl on his head. He was selling like drinks, bottles of drinks. Um, and typ- over there it's called hawking. Um- Mm. Yeah you basically sell to make money for, for the day, what is the equivalent maybe of a dollar. Um, and I can never forget, he ran from... I, I was looking ahead. There were a few cars ahead. We're sat in heavy traffic. He ran from one car for what seemed like an age, like 10 minutes to try and sell one bottle of Coke. Mm. That memory's still firmly etched. You're talking this is over 30 something, close to maybe 40 years ago. And- I saw him walking back still with the bottle of Coke in his hand. He had basically got to the car and I think the person in the car didn't want it anymore. And I can remember I sat there in the car, I was looking at all this and tears just started coming out- Wow down my eyes, you know. And, um, it's not that I hadn't been aware of, um, social inequality or inequality as a whole, social injustice, but I, I don't know, that picture for some reason did something to me. And so from then I've always found myself, um, I would describe myself almost like a Moses of my generation where- Mm. I'm always intervening, um, trying to put out fires i- in different places, just advocating for people who I feel, um, you know, can't speak for themselves. Um, so yeah, that, that's kind of, um, a bit about me and my history and maybe some, some context and some relevance to my work. You're very calm. Yeah. You present as very calm. And I'm, I, I've got It's just, it's just come into my head as you were talking and I, I wanted to Do you ever get angry I do. Um, I do. But, um, I think one thing I've learned is, is understanding how to, um, channel my emotions. I spend a lot of time doing a lot of reflection- Mm um, and processing and thinking. Um, and I think my anger finds expression in my work. And when I say- Yeah that, what I mean is, um, I, I... It's interesting, I was having a conversation with someone the other day, and, you know, I'm experiencing a few things at the moment, and I said, "But when I, when I get into my work, I'm energized by my work. You know, I find deep joy. If you woke me up at 2:00 o'clock in the morning, um, you know, I would still, you know, my work would be, um, the, uh, uh, if, if, if it was something I had to do without being paid for doing it, it, you know, I would still do this." Um, so I don't know, I don't know if that's a... Yeah, I, I've, yeah, found different ways- You sound perfect to, to channel. Oh, absolutely not. I think also when, when you're married, I don't know, you know, for those who are. Yes. Oh, you, you will develop patience. You compromise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Uh, so I, I think, and to be fair, I, I, I know this isn't necessarily about sort of personal stuff- Yeah but my wife is very calm. You think I'm calm. Mm. My wife is, she's the epitome of calm. Ah. Everything can be breaking down around, everything can be, but she's the epitome of calm. And I think I've just, you know- It's rubbed off I've just, yeah. Oh. I've just picked that up naturally. Or you've given in. Yeah. Oh, my. So let me, let's, let's get to this philanthropy space, which is a, it's a strange space, I think. Um, and I wanna, I wanna, I wanna talk about the Racial Justice Fund. I wanna talk- Yeah about Trust for London. I, I, I think Trust for Lon- Trust for London is really interesting. I think its monthly newsletter is powerful. I think its focus on, um, inequality- Mm and the whole economic element sets it apart from others, other trusts. Mm-hmm. Um, and- I just wonder what you think. Do you, I mean, you know, you don't wanna upset your colleagues and so on, but do you think they're on the right track? Are they getting there? What...? Yeah, I mean, the trust is an incredible organization. Um- And when I say your colleagues, I mean other trusts- Trusts, yeah as opposed to Trust for London. Look, I mean, I think every, every organization has its own mandate, right? Mm-hmm. Um, I think Trust for London by virtue of its mission, you know, which is to make London a fairer city. I mean, originally the, the, the mission is to tackle poverty and inequality in London- Mm and, you know, by making London a fairer city, a fairer place. I think that tells you a lot about the organization. It's been going since, um, 1893, thereabout. Yeah. Those big numbers. Um- Those institutional numbers. Absolutely. It's, it's been around, you know, um, for a long time. Trust for London has done some incredible work. It's one of the very few foundations I know, um, that, you know, has taken some incredible risks- Mm you know, funded work, you know, over time that, um, probably wasn't deemed popular. I mean, uh, as I said, I've been at the organization six years, but you know, you look through the, the walls in the, when you come into the organization, it still has like libraries of, you know- Really? Yeah. You know, funding over 40 years, 50 years, 100 years. And some of the programs that Trust for London has been involved in, like, you know, FGM, the female gen- genital mutilation, which wasn't necessarily popular, you know, but Trust for London funded work around that. Funded work around, uh, Moving On Up, which was a scheme that was designed to get, um, young Black boys, i- particularly, um, um, you know, into the city, into work. Mm. Um, Trust for London has had a long history of funding work around, you know, uh, migration- Mm asylum seekers, you know, and that's still a really core part of the strategy. In fact, the migration strategy has evolved, and one of the things that Trust for London is really keen to understand is around social cohesion. Like, you know, with the deeply divided, um, where we are as a society, you know. Um, the trust has been doing a lot of- Mm incredible work to understand that. And then obviously racial and economic justice. Mm. Like- Let me pause that before- Yes we get into that. So it has an endowment, I assume. Has an endowment, yes. What, how big is it? Um- These, these are the Anoraky things I'm interested in. Yes. I think historically, um, when I first joined, I understood at the time that the value was around, you know, 3 to 400 million. Um, I know since then, obviously it's, it's shrunk- Mm because the way the endowment works, it's that, it, it's, um- I- it's an endowment that exists in perpetuity- Yes right? Um, and it's invested into, you know, capital markets, et cetera. So obviously, if the market isn't performing well- Yes that's gonna have an impact on, on the endowment. Yeah. The trust has what it calls tramlines, you know, which- Yeah helps it determine, you know, how much we set aside for grant making, et cetera. But yeah, I think now the value's about 288 to 300 million thereabouts- Mm um, which is still sizable. Oh, yeah. Um, but I think- It's not insignificant. Yeah. The trustees, both past and present, have done an incredible job in terms of, uh, preserving that- Mm you know, and ensuring that, um, there is still funding available to, you know, to keep funding the work that we do. So tell me then, let's get to this core piece. Tell me about the Racial Justice Fund. W- I mean, it was called the Racial Just- Racial Justice Economic Fund. No. So i- so initially, so this, I joined the trust in 2020. It was at the time of the murder of George Floyd. Yeah Um, the Black Lives Matter movement. There were lots of foundations coming out- Mm and making really bold statements. There was a sudden sort of awakening and recognition, um, that more needed to be done- Mm um, especially with, you know, Black and minoritized communities. Um, and Trust for London did, um, a, a sort of a deep dive of its data to look at historically, um, the types of organizations that it's funded. Um- Mm and whilst we recognized that we had done a lot of work around racial equality, I think, um, we appreciated that we hadn't done stuff explicitly around racial equity. Um, and so one of the tasks I was set with earlier on, um, and I remember there was, there had been conversations, um, at board level about, you know, what do we do? What is our own response to this? Obviously, the impact of COVID, a lot of the data that was coming out was also showing the deep, uh, inequalities, um, and the impacts of especially the health inequalities, especially among Black and minoritized- Mm communities. Um, and so naturally, as a social justice funder, um, it, it felt like there was an onus on us to respond. Not, not that we were responding, um, it, it was a s- not that it was a knee-jerk sort of response, but it was very much a considered response and part of, I think, our work anyway as, um, a, a trust and, you know, in a way feeding into some of the stuff that we did. So I'd come in, um, I previously led some of our, you know, work around temporary accommodation and, you know, this came up and, you know, I put my hand up and said, "Look, I'm really interested in, in, in sort of leading this." Um, and so started to do a lot of listening within the community, talking to the community, um, understanding, you know, what does the community need? And I think it re- it very quickly became clear to me. I looked across the UK, um, and no one, first of all, had done, um, anything really around racial equity, so to speak. There was a lot of stuff around racial equality, which the focus was very much around representation. Mm. Um, and interestingly, I drafted a paper just before I'd started at Trust for London, when I think lots of funders were talking about, oh, what should we do? I did a, a, a, a study on, like, all of the intermediaries and foundations in the UK, and I think I counted maybe two or three that were led by people of color- Mm from Black and minoritized communities. Um, and I said, "That's, that's obviously where you've got to start." And I'm not talking about increased representation, I'm talking about capital. So just- Yes right there. Yes. I, and I remember, remember when you and I first... Well, when you put the fund out- Yes I looked at this. I remember, I think I spoke to Lee Jasper and Jeremy- Jeremy, yes, yes the whole, the whole, the usual suspects Yes, the old guard. Yes. Right? The old guard. And we were saying, "Wow," because it literally didn't exist anywhere. Yeah. The language around it, it was like, literally like a bolt from the blue. And, um, you and I had a conversation on the phone, and I've come off the phone and, and Lee was like, "So who's this guy?" So I said, "I don't, I don't know. He's one of them, that, that generation of y- youngsters coming through." Yeah. Puts me as a very old- Very old individual, right? And, um, remember, 'cause thinking w- exactly what are they looking for? Mm. So that shows how forward-thinking- Yeah it was when it came out, because the, the usual parameters didn't apply. Yeah. It play- this is my remem- you know, recognition of it, and that's why I'm wondering why, if the economic element has been dropped. Yeah. But it placed a, it placed a real emphasis on economics as the, you know, being locked out of- Yeah opportunity economically as the seed bed for anything, um, that's put forward. The longitudinal dimension of it being also a critical element of it. And- Yeah and just there wasn't any thinking around any of that stuff out there amongst organizations at the time. I'm not saying we didn't all understand it- Yeah but putting together something that met what the funder was looking for, that was something that hadn't been done before. Yeah. A- and it, I mean, it's interesting you, you had that, um, observation because in a way that was reflected in when we launched the types of applications- Oh we got through. Because, yes, as you said, I don't think a lot of people... 'Cause for me, I was very much interested in, in how systems distribute income and how they distribute wealth, assets, et cetera, et cetera. So I remember when I did my first draft of the paper, and I was really clear. As I said to you, I'd, I'd done something beforehand just before I'd joined, joined Trust for London, and I'd actually put it to, um, a big intermediary, you know, very well-known intermediary. And I said, um, I mean, now you have Pathway Fund, but- Mm I had written a paper pretty much that described Pathways Fund's journey, and I'd shared it- Mm with someone and said, "If you're serious about, um- basically ceding power. I said it has to be about access to capital and resources. Yes. So you need to capitalize more Black-led intermediaries- Yes because they are the more proximate leaders to the issues. Um- Do you, do you think we've got enough? No, there isn't. Uh, we haven't even started, you know. We've got Pathway. I think there's Phoenix. There is, um- Phoenix, which has just been- Yeah, I think it's still- in its new form. Yeah, its new form. Brilliant to see Shane back. Shane Ryan. Just list, name check. Yes. Yeah. Pathway, Asher. Asher, brilliant. Um, you know, and, and the team there that, you know, obviously- Mm helped around that, Kunle. Um, you have Pathway. Uh, there's one more, I'm trying to remember. It will come to, it will come anyway. Um, but no, we d- short answer is we, we don't have enough. Um- Where would you put Baobab in that? I think Baobab was the one I was thinking of. Hmm. I think there's still a lot of work- Work ongoing. Yeah. Um, you know, but it would be great if Baobab was to join that- They have a, a notional 8 million- From- endowment from Lankelly. Um, it would be great- Which I was involved in. Okay. The founding part. So, and you're right. Yeah. They haven't, they haven't broke ground yet. Yeah. Let's use some building terms. Yeah. 'Cause we might touch on, uh, equity and- Yeah construction and stuff. But potentially they could be another one of those, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So a- and I think for me that was, that was my starting point. Right. Um, that actually we need to look at how resources are distributed, we need to look at how income, how wealth. And so that automatically, um, put the framing of the fund within racial... And I, my, I think my view then was that you can't have racial justice without economic justice. Yes. That actually, the whole argument around racial justice, you know, is because of the lack of economic justice, and so we need to look at it through that lens. Because my experience had been when I looked, um, within the sector and looked around for stuff, especially from a UK perspective, what I found was that a lot of, or any racial, racialized program tended to focus very much on criminal justice- Mm in a way, which is kind of useful context for this conversation. Yes. Um, and even within that, the focus was always on policing and- Yes um, criminalization and- Mm you know, the criminal justice system, et cetera. Mm. But never ever focusing on the economic, the numbers. Mm. Like, where does the money f- where does the money flow, you know? Where does the money flow? Um, so that was... So I, from the outset, that was my kind of theory of change. If we can increase the amount of income that Black and minoritized communities, um, own, generate, then what we're talking about now is generational wealth. Yeah. You know, because if you look across different, um, uh, social areas, so whether that's housing, employment, um, et cetera, et cetera, like you see, you know, Black and minoritized communities are significantly disadvantaged- Mm you know. So look. Yeah. The people gonna be watching this. Yeah. Well, they're thinking, "All right, he's talking a great game." Yeah. "We like it. How do we get access to this money?" So we need to look at the system. What is, what, what is going to change as a result of our work? Or, or, or even the starting point is what's causing the inequality in the first place? So you're saying whoever's wanting to access this money- Yes, yes their first question to themselves, what, within the sector that they're in? Within the sector. So for example, if you work, and this is the, the, the simplest way, you know. And I was getting a lot of, you know, like programs where they say, "Oh look, we work with young people. We do- Mm a lot of mentoring." I say, "Look, that, that's fantastic and those things are great. Um, but in and of themselves they're not sufficient enough to bring about the change that we want to see." I think it's just- Because we need to do the work upstream you're, you're, you talked at the top of the conversation- Yeah about the systemic thinking, right? Yes. Which is a part of where you're coming from. Yeah. And I think part of why there was so much, I think, resistance, right- Yeah to this initiative to begin with is because you were asking people to think differently. Absolutely. And it's like that experiment, I can't remember who did it before, but you had the rats in the cage. Yeah, yeah. Then you open the cage and the rats don't wanna come out- Yeah right? Because they're just u- the barrier's just- Yeah gone, but they're still... So talking in that kind of free form, lateral, you know, um, progressive, expansive way about money- Yeah and opportunity is alien. It, it was. It was very hard. You know, I got a lot of flack- Mm even from- Internally the community- Yeah the, you know, as well. Mm. A lot of people were like, "Oh, you don't understand," you know. Um, and I said, "Look, I get it, you know. We obviously need to balance being able to meet the immediate needs of communities, but at the same time, if we only keep doing that, we will just keep going round and round in circles, you know?" So there are gonna be people listening and thinking- Yeah "I still don't know what he's talking about." So- So, so because we've had these conversations before, I would be interested to, if it's okay with you- Yes to hear one of your examples. Okay. Um, uh- One of the success stories so many good ones. Um, so many brilliant ones. I mean, I could name check- Mm um- Brixton Market, like what's happening- Yeah that's a big one. But no, I want... I'm just thinking something that's, um, very, very, um, relevant to... So let's say as an example, um, an organization that's delivering debt service advice. Right. Very important, very necessary. They see people on a daily basis who present with issues around different types of debt. Yes. But that's not really the problem, is it? So we need to get behind that problem, like ask the question like, what is causing these people to perpetually fall in debt? Like- Mm how has the system been designed that continually keeps these people in this way? Mm. And what are you learning? Every day these people are coming through your doors, that you're talking to them, you're hearing their experiences, you're hearing what they're telling you. Part of the reason, you know, y- you might have someone who comes in and says, "Look, you know, they're always falling behind on their council tax debt," as an example, you know. What needs to change about the way council tax is collected, you know? Mm-hmm. Are there particular systems that as a community we, um, we operate that is not necessarily recognized? So one of the organizations that we funded, um, and, and the reason I, I mention them, because I remember when it, when it was sort of first presented. Even it was, it was a struggle internally- Mm to try and understand that. Um, like okay, I've no... Um, what does this mean? Um, it was an organization that wanted to do research to understand the systems that, you know, Black, racialized, minoritized communities operate, which is a system around lending and saving. Right. Some people understand them as, um, ROSCAs, rotational savings credit associations. In different languages you might understand them as pardnas- Mm susu- Mm-hmm et cetera. Where basically we come together as a group. Imagine you and I, we came together with, you know, three or four others, and every month we put money aside. You know, we save money. Say this person wanted to buy a house, this person wanted to be able to pay their kids' tuition fees, et cetera, et cetera. But unfortunately, those systems are not recognized, um, within the formal financial economy. Um- you know, the likes of the FCA, the banks- Mm the credit reference agencies, they don't acknowledge those systems. They don't even recognize that those systems exist. And so there is an underlying assumption that as people of color, we don't know how to lend or save. Um, and therefore we need to follow this particular system of, you know, being scored by, you know, your Equifax or- Mm your, um, what's the other one now? What's the other credit reference agency? Um, uh, I can't re- anyway. There's two, there are two other main ones- Two major ones, yes I think. Escape me at the moment, yeah. Um, but here, what this, what this organization is saying, "No, we need to rethink, um, that whole approach. We need to think about how we bring that, the, the current system that we operate into the formal financial economy by doing some research to understand the behaviors," et cetera, et cetera. All of that is on the website. L- I do want to And then the other one was an organization called Money A&E. Mm-hmm. So, you know, and Rooted Finance. Two really incredible organizations that did precisely that. They took a lot of what I would consider to be frontline service delivery. So like- Yeah the mentoring I'm talking about as an example, like, I'll weave in and out, but take the mentoring for an example. I speak to a lot of organizations, "Oh, we're mentoring, you know, young kids because lack of access to networks, et cetera, et cetera." But I say, "What's the real issue? If you had to stop what you were doing today, like what would it take? What's the reason why you have to, um, have mentoring schemes?" Hmm. And then the light bulb suddenly comes on. "Ah, okay. I understand. It's because of X, Y, Z. It's because these people don't have access to these networks." So actually the real issue is not a mentoring scheme. The real issue is changing the practice and of the way the system operates. Either you do that through legislation, through policy, through campaigning, advocacy. You just bring pressure on the system to say, "You've got to change. You can't continue to operate this way." So I'm just thinking- Yeah 'cause it is, the more I listen to it, the more- Yeah I'm thinking this stuff is really ahead of where a lot of people are at. Mm-hmm. So, um, do you have to run, I don't know, question and answer sessions, briefing sessions for people to get on board, or have more and more people begun to understand it? Well, I- And- Yeah if somebody listening to this or watching this wanted to, especially within the criminal justice space where there is a real need- Yeah for resources, um, wanted to do something along the lines what you're talking about, so very much like upstream is what you're saying- Yeah underpinning. How would they go about understanding that? Would they- Come and talk to me. That- Right that's the first. My, my approach is very, very conversational, and it was again, in the design of the fund- You know- Yes just, I'm, I'm cutting you a bit, Ronald, 'cause I want you to land your point, but I want to highlight this fact. Most of the people that we speak to, other than the top 1%, right? Yeah. Would never think of calling up a funder to have a conversation. Yeah. Never. And I, I've spoken to, where I'm advising people and what, I've spoken to a lot of organizations that are doing moderately well- Yeah in this climate. Let's say they're, they're, they're north of 100,000, right? Which for Black organizations sadly is, is not bad, right? They would never think about calling up a funder and saying, "Oh, I'm thinking about this, X, Y, Z," and so on and so forth. Yeah. A- and I do, I get that, and that's because of historically the way philanthropy and funding has been set up, you know? Mm. So interestingly, one of the things, um, within the design of the fund, um, one of the, the, um, the things I talk about is the need to resource more collaborative approaches- Mm to the different issues. Yes. And the reason I mention that was because I also recognize that historically, a lot of Black-led organizations have been set up to compete with each other. Yes. Um, and so that's why, you know, when something like this comes up, they're not sure, you know, who can I speak to? Can I speak to someone? But within this fund, for example, it's very much a relationship-based approach. Um, and, uh, o- one thing I didn't talk about was my background in, in social investment, you know? Mm. And I think that really helped to inform a lot of the principles around the Racial and Economic Justice Fund. Take investment, for example. Say you wanted to buy this building. Typically, the way we would work is, um, you would approach an investor. Um, an investor is not necessarily interested in the building itself- Mm or even in the idea. They're interested in the person behind the idea. Yes. Like, what motivates you? Like, why do you want to do this? Like, how did this come about? And so in a way, the journey starts from there. It's really getting to know you because they are vested into this, whereas grant funding takes a very different approach. It's more of a transactional, we're looking to buy outcomes. And it's so interesting from a funding perspective, like money isn't neutral- Yes right? Money takes the shape of whoever decide where it goes. Like, if I say to you, "I'm giving you 200K, I'm expecting that that 200K is gonna buy X amount of outcomes," et cetera, et cetera. And so within the principles of the fund, I was really, really clear that this had to be relational, taking a lot of the investment, um, approach that I, I'd experienced over the last 15 years, 'cause I spent a large part of my background working within investment and impact investment, social investment. And that's how we operate. We would go out to, you know... Someone will ca- you know, call me speculatively, "I've got this idea." No problem. When can we come out and visit? Mm. I'll go out, visit, sit down, have a conversation. Talk to me. Um, I'll take notes. We'll work back and forth. We'll do, you know... And so the Racial Justice Fund operates in that way. Come to me with an idea. Um, what are you thinking? Let's have a conversation. Let's shape that idea together and get it to a place where it may be a fit, it may not necessarily be a fit, but what you will benefit from through the process is that I will help you to sharpen your thinking around what it is that you're doing and consider what you may not have considered. And just on that point, it's interesting because in talking to a lot of organizations, what I found was A lot of people didn't realize that indirectly they were doing systems change work. Right. But they just hadn't framed it in that same language. Framed it, named it. Yes. Mm. They hadn't. But it's through the conversation, I'm saying, "Well, okay, you work with young people, you're listening to them, or you work with people who are experiencing different housing issues, so you know what needs to change." Yeah. You know that the, you know, policies, um, around, you know, temporary accommodation as an example, it has a massive impact on your service users, and you're hearing from your service users what needs to change. And so it's about collecting all of that evidence and then using that evidence to lobby, to advocate for changes to the system, and that's effectively systems change. But again, as I said earlier on, language. Yes. Like, things have been designed in particular ways, so we use particular types of language even within philanthropy and funding. So when we talk about systems change, we make it this really big, um, nebulous thing that, you know, communities are thinking, "What the hell is that?" You know? Not only that, they get frightened. Yeah. Thinking- "What, what's that?" Yeah. But actually it's very practical things that they're doing on the ground already, you know? This whole pool thing. Yeah. On the surface looks like a great thing. Yeah. But for me it's also a worry that it creates an environment where funders gossip with each other and decide this and that- Mm and all the rest of it. Or decide, for example, we touched on the whole extremism piece. It, it's noisy. Mm. In a kind of twisted way it's also attractive. They all, do they all veer off down that path like a herd and forget some of the stuff you've been talking about? That, that's interesting. I mean, I, I hadn't considered it from that perspective. I guess, you know, having worked, um, within the sector for a very long time, one of the things, um- We've always, um, challenged organizations, charities, social enterprises on is around duplication. Mm-hmm. And there's a lot of fragmentation within this space. There's a lot of organizations doing the same things. And it's interesting that we've looked at it from that perspective. But I've always said, "Why don't we look at it from the sort of funder perspective?" 'Cause in a way we've kind of created that. Hmm. And so what if we were to change that? What if more funders were to collaborate? Um, would we then reduce some of that duplication that happens? Right. I get you. And so by pooling our resources, our knowledge, our expertise, you know, um, our historical assets, I think we can bring to bear a lot more on, on, on some of these issues. And I've seen that work brilliantly with this fund. Hmm. With, you know, City Bridge Foundation, Lloyds. I mean, Lloyds joining the pooled fund has been incredible. It's allowed us to do even more, to go longer, wider- Yes um, in terms of the breadth of stuff that we've been able to fund and the depth of stuff that we've been able to fund. Um, and then they've also brought their institutional knowledge. And actually what you find is that there is an opportunity to influence even our understanding of some of these issues and our approach to some of these issues. And we can influence some of our processes. You know, a particular funder might have a very specific way of doing things. But maybe by working with us, you know, through a lot of my experiences of working directly with the community, I can help to influence how they think- Yes you know, about those issues, and therefore how they approach it. So, you know, through some of the learning that's come, I, I might say, actually, you know what? It's good to have a phone call with these organizations. It's good to have some development funding for these organizations. It's good to not just shut these organizations down, um, but to think about how we create the conditions for these organizations to succeed. And so to a degree, we've been able to influence some of these approaches, especially around racial and economic justice. You know, and I say this with all sense of humility. When I started, uh, 2020- I think Trust for London at the time was the only funder doing work around racial justice Yes Since then we've had the likes of Esmée Fairbairn, Tudor Trust, um, the, um, City Bridge obviously- Yeah Lloyds, um, um, I think the Baring Foundation Yeah You know, so we- we've had quite a few now. Um, and you know, these are organizations who have one time or the other have picked the phone, you know, or they might have read stuff or seen stuff that we're doing. Some of the stuff that we've been funding is game-changing. Um- It's pioneering work Really pioneering. Stour Trust, an organization that never come across before, has done something incredible. Actually there's a building, I think, is it the b- Hackney Basins or so- Oh, yeah that they secured in perpetuity at a peppercorn rent for Black minoritized communities. They're doing incredible work around regeneration, um, around securing assets- Which organization is this? Stour Trust, by the way Stour, Stour Juliet Khan. I really must- Yeah, yeah namecheck Juliet Yeah Brilliant. She has been incredible Do you finance the thinking process? Absolutely, because as I said- Because that's another thing people don't do, right? No. Change- They think they've gotta do the thinking No, change doesn't happen overnight. Like, there is a lot of distilling that needs to happen. So sometimes there is development work that needs to happen that helps you think through- Yeah because when you think about system, you need to think about who are the actors within that system- Yeah who needs to be influenced, like, et cetera, et cetera. And so you sometimes you need time and space to do that thinking, um, and that development work. And yes, we will fund that as long as it's part of a broader strategy- Yes for change, for long-term change. Thank you for your time, sir No, thank you. I, I've, yeah, really enjoyed it I, I know we're gonna bring you back to deal with the brick-and-mortar side of things. Probably the environmental stuff. We could probably do the... I wanted to talk to you about AI and how that all plays. Yeah But I think the, the thing that I think we, we want people to go away with, um, is the fact that they can just call Yeah That they have to think less about actual delivery- Mm in reaction to, and more upstream, what's feeding this problem- Yeah and driving this problem. And, you know, the establishment type organizations have known this for years, right? They can- Mm they can get money to do the thinking. Yeah They need to be able to and willing to do that. Thank you for your time, sir. Thank you very much, Riv. Yeah Very big, big pleasure. Thank you